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pamjohnson
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 1615

Pat I understand what you are saying but the reality of the dogs that are getting open and what your implying are different. Today in the hunts dogs are hustling around opening up on air, trash, even other dogs and receiving undeserved points. The fix is not to minus these hounds but instead not to give them credit for such nonsense. It's not the perfect solution but the best solution.

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Old Post 05-29-2019 12:51 AM
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yadkintar
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 8912

Bruce anouther idea that I been thinking about (if) these rules pass and (if ) the minie slams were to become popular have state races. The top 4 in each state would be qualified along with the rqe winners for that years world hunt. The minie slams you get performance points , a win tword your title you get cash money that night and you get qualified for the world if you get in the top 4 of your state. Donít that sound like a recipe for success?



Tar

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Old Post 05-29-2019 02:20 AM
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Redneck Mafia
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 3810

Tar you are right in one respect ... the only way to ever truly increase any significant numbers at the local level is to have some sort of pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, a race that is not Purina points or performance point orientated, something appealable to the everyday coonhunter. As of now the only way to qualify for Purina Nationals is to hunt in Purina hunts which has nothing to do with the local club level. MANY own dogs that are not performanced so even though there are some that hunt in hunts to get that check once a year they are far from the majority.
There are a few types of competition hunters -
Those that enjoy competing whether it be for a pack of bubble gum, yellow slip of paper, $54 or $72 & when they have the time and or funds a few larger events. They are a clubs base and there should be something for them and their loyalty and efforts.
There are those that only hunt in larger events some it's for the challenge of $ others a weekend trip to their breed days. Want to draw them more often, give them a reason to show up.
Where UKC misses the boat is the offering of a goal that pushed hunters to hunt at the local level with a goal in mind. Think of those in other kc's that run state races that also earn them national tickets while at the same time the chance to earn truck tickets and those $'s through winning at the local level qualifying them for SS and breed races. I just listed 5 reasons that people show at our local other kc events.
UKC has no state or national races that involve the local clubs. Local clubs are solely supported by those who just like to compete while at the same time earning a title on their dog, there is no true reason to continue other than a higher title. They need a goal to shoot for that involves local hunters and clubs at the local level that brings prestige in qualifying for. It needs to be attainable to qualify but yet tough to win. Elimination style lol.

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Old Post 05-29-2019 05:27 AM
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yadkintar
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 8912

Jen you are right. I for one have struggled with the goals I have told you before most of the clubs are gone down here or a long ways apart and the $$$$ kc down here their entryís every other weekend are usually always $300. That leaves me out !! I have always hunted my dogs for going to this hunt or that hunt in mind with less hunts my goals are gone. So start a club they say I have set behind the table all I want to I want to hunt like everybody else. I would like to know how many hunters that the only ukc hunt they hunt in is they go to an rqe then the zones then the finals ? Or just go to the hunts with big prize packages ? The new format was supposed to help the local clubs but without state races or goals for the local hunters it is not complete. Give goals and modern rules where you can compete against these modern dogs ukc would be unstoppable!!


Tar

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Old Post 05-29-2019 12:08 PM
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Bruce m. Conkey
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 4032

.

Tar you have some good points but one thing always rings true in your statements. It is a dislike for the modern dog. I understand how older people don't like change and think the modern ways disrupts the foundation of things. But the facts are. Modern dogs are here to stay and the modern hunter doesn't understand the dogs you are talking about and they sure don't want them. Why, because they beat them every weekend. They feel the reason is their dogs perform better and you feel the reason is they have a non traditional cheating dog.

There is one word that needs to come into play here and that is TRADITION. It is always a shame when TRADITION takes a backseat to what is happening in our world today. But we all have to get over it, if you're going to be part of something moving forward. TRADITION while us old timers like to talk about it. In many cases is nothing more that a ball and chain around the neck of the person, company or organization hanging on to it.

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Old Post 05-29-2019 12:38 PM
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yadkintar
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 8912

Bruce I will be the first to admit itís not about me anymore. You prolly will remember about 3 yrs ago I hit the $$$$ circuit pretty hard and did pretty good and loved the format I seen where no matter what kind of style of dog you drew you had several different ways to be able to compete with them with a traditional dog. The rules above will be the same way. I have a 32 year old son that loves this sport I just want to see it spit shined and stood proud for all the young folks to see.


Tar

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Old Post 05-29-2019 12:56 PM
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Pat Bizich
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2004
Location: northeast
Posts: 1129

quote:
Originally posted by pamjohnson
Pat I understand what you are saying but the reality of the dogs that are getting open and what your implying are different. The fix is not to minus these hounds but instead not to give them credit for such nonsense. It's not the perfect solution but the best solution.


So are you agreeing that no one should get credit for getting first strike? And all dogs should get equal credit for strikes?
I find it extremely hard to believe that babbling is as big a problem as the few individuals on here keep complaining . After over 30 years of competition hunting, judging nite champion and registered casts as a hunting and non hunting judge, judging RQE's, world hunt zones, spectating on many, many, more ,club hunts, ,pleasure hunts with various individuals young and old hounds. I can say unequivocally ,I have only seen 3-4 true babblers .
I said TRUE babblers not the ones people perceived to be or believed to be babbling.
To me it is a problem being blown out of proportion by individuals as I keep repeating that don't know the difference.
Now as to strike points are not important...ÖÖÖÖÖÖ

The last time I looked we are hunting COON H-O-U-N-D-S

HOUND DEF:

a dog of a breed used for hunting, especially one able to track by scent.. Emphasized.. ESPECIALLY ONE ABLE TO TRACK BY SCENT !!

We are hunting them in competitions.

COMPETITION DEF:

an organized event in which people try to win a prize by being the best, fastest, etc.

activity or condition of striving to gain or win something by defeating or establishing superiority over others.

Here again .Emphasized ...THE BEST ,THE FASTEST.

_____________________________________
I will concede somewhat that after the January format change it no longer matters how many or how fast coons are treed on a hunt's each individual cast because you are not competing with other casts in the hunt any longer.
Under the new format you are a winner with one coon or five coon. Old format it was important to tree as many as you could to win the hunt.(Speed again)
However may be, the speed of getting a strike can still be a factor in winning your individual cast.

Equal strike points to all dogs would go against all logic of it being a COMPETITION hunt.
I have an idea. You guys wanting equal credit on all strikes. Lets give equal credit to all the dogs that get treed . After all what difference does it make who trees first as long as the coon is seen? (Compare to statements currently being written on this forum that speed of a strike has no bearing on a dogs ability)
On slick trees we will minus the dog there first and circle every one else because old slick tree should be penalized the most for being the fastest to get that slick tree.
We may as well change the name from competition hunt to a participation event.
We will then give a win to all dogs entered that finish their casts with any plus points .
Then everyone entered will given a PARTICIPATION TROPHY. This will level the playing field for all .

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Home of:

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Last edited by Pat Bizich on 05-29-2019 at 03:38 PM

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Old Post 05-29-2019 03:03 PM
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yadkintar
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 8912

Pat a dog opening before you get the snap off his collar every drop is not what I call an open trailer. Back in the day we broke them to at least get 100 yards or so away from you before they opened because of the rules in place. Just because they got that far before they opened didnít mean they were silent. I have a big problem with a dog opening off the snap and being a mile deep every drop we all ainít big dummies.


Tar

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Old Post 05-29-2019 03:17 PM
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BigContry
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 905

quote:
Originally posted by Sgraves
Mr Pat I too like a open mouth track dog. It is an should be the only measure of a true hound. But the dog your talking about is not the type being brought to these hunts. Some are against the silent mouth dogs in the hunts. An all should be against the babbler. Me , I just want the one treeing the coon getting the credit. The people that are involved in this sport will never be at peace because everyone wants the easy way out. Its not easy preparing a dog for these hunts. Its an every night thing if you want to be successful. People donít want to prepare. They want rule changes to accommodate their style dog.

They want rule changes to accommodate their style dog. WELL SAID!!!!!! Thank you!!!!!
I was typing this when I read Sgraves post

I got so aggravated when reading this, I just had to stop reading. JMO which donít me nothing. So we changing the rules to fit the dogs. Tight mouth, slick treeing, get out of the country, spend the entire hunt walking to one dog. Get rid of babbling scratch rule, Strike points, no strikepoints, all the same strike points. Sounds like squirrel hunts to me. Coon Hunting is an American Tradition, and we keep getting further away from the original hunt. Why? So the dogs being breed today can win, thatís all that matters it the win. Man oh Man.

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Old Post 05-29-2019 03:17 PM
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Pat Bizich
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2004
Location: northeast
Posts: 1129

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Pat a dog opening before you get the snap off his collar every drop is not what I call an open trailer. I have a big problem with a dog opening off the snap and being a mile deep every drop we all ainít big dummies.


Tar




Got me in total agreement there.
And those are your true babblers IF ,big IF they continue to open while chasing around in front of you .
Now those one mile deep while opening you speak of need culled . Unfortunately because of the advent of Garmins, these type dogs will be bred, promoted ,and advertised as go yonder get treed dogs .And people will flock to their kennels to get them some.

__________________
IT SEEMS THAT EVERYTIME A BREED OR LINE OF DOGS GET POPULAR IT EVENTUALLY LEADS TO ITS RUINATION BY UNINFORMED PEOPLE BREEDING WITHOUT DOING THEIR RESEARCH FIRST.

Gone but never forgotten:
NtChGrCh Dryfork Punkin
NtChGrCh Dryfork Little Blue Baby Doll
2009 Pa Show Dog Of The Year
GrCh Dryfork Little Black Book

Home of:

2009,2013,2018 Pa. State
Show Handler Of The Year
GrCh Dryfork Black Dog Raine
Gr.Ch. Black Dog Black Cherry
Gr.Ch. Make My Day Sunny
2018 Pa. Show Dog Of Year
Gr.Ch. Batman's Poison Ivy
2011&2013 WTDA Pa State Champion
2011&2013 Overall Hunt For The Cure
Ch. Jay's Greenridge Heidi
In memory of my best friend "Jay"

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Old Post 05-29-2019 03:52 PM
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Sgraves
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2017
Location:
Posts: 122

Itís a free country, a man can hunt whatever he wants. He feeds it an that is all that matters. In order to be successful in these hunts a dog has to fit the rules that are in place. Thatís plain to see. A good handler that knows the rules well an has a dog that can tree coon is hard to beat.That is the way it should be. I donít like rule changes. There are people that for years have bred to get their dogs like need be to win. Yes times are changing, we to will have to change if we want to keep up. People will continue to come up with ways to win if the dog power is not there. There is no better sound than a hound getting struck on a track an warming it up treeing an seeing those eyes. Thatís why we do what we do. No body wants to take the open mouth track dogs away an push for silent ones . Thatís foolish thinking. I know what a hound sounds like that has struck a legit track, many others do too. You want make me believe that the majority of the dogs that are in these hunts today are stricking on a legit coon track. Thatís the whole problem folks is getting tired of dogs being struck off the leash just to be leashed locked an walking a mile.

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Old Post 05-29-2019 04:10 PM
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yadkintar
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 8912

quote:
Originally posted by BigContry
They want rule changes to accommodate their style dog. WELL SAID!!!!!! Thank you!!!!!
I was typing this when I read Sgraves post

I got so aggravated when reading this, I just had to stop reading. JMO which donít me nothing. So we changing the rules to fit the dogs. Tight mouth, slick treeing, get out of the country, spend the entire hunt walking to one dog. Get rid of babbling scratch rule, Strike points, no strikepoints, all the same strike points. Sounds like squirrel hunts to me. Coon Hunting is an American Tradition, and we keep getting further away from the original hunt. Why? So the dogs being breed today can win, thatís all that matters it the win. Man oh Man.




Tommy I am an old doggie I come from a time when the only way you knew where your dog was is if it barked. The only tools you had to win a hunt was your mind and your dog. We had no gizmos!! The only way you will know if you are going to like the rules above is get some freinds together and try them a few times. I donít like change but I promise you those rules give an honest dog more ways to win against those new style of dogs they have now. I took a dead last (open trailing ) strike dog and a first tree dog with the meat and beat the brakes off of those new style dogs.


Tar

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Old Post 05-29-2019 06:39 PM
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Toad Hill
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2014
Location: missouri
Posts: 827

quote:
Originally posted by Pat Bizich
Now you guys are getting my dander up.
A true hound .. read that again...TRUE HOUND. .. must first be able to smell ...trail... and... TREE SECONDARY TO RUNNING A TRACK they must be accurate in doing so or there would be no sense in awarding minus when they tree wrong for not finishing that track accurately.
If opening has no consequence why is there a rule dealing with dogs proving to be open trailers ? Why do HTX hunts fault a dog that does not open on trail? BECAUSE IT IS A HOUND TRAIT!!!!
Any barn yard mutt dog can tree game. That is the difference between a hound and not some mongrel farm dog that can tree game.
Saying how quick a dog strikes has no bearing on a dogs ability is a bogus cop out by guys hunting hot nosed dogs that want to level the field for their HOT NOSED DOGS!!!
You may as well be hunting curs.
So you got three dogs lollygagging around. One dog goes out and is hustling up a good track. The other three dogs get in on the track with one actually getting the first tree away from the one that found the track . AND YOU SAY THEY SHOULD ALL GET EQUAL CREDIT FOR THAT TRACK??? I say BULL.
You guys wanting rule changes that penalize good hard hunting strike dogs are like the political garbage going on today. Everyone wants the country to come around to the way they want to live instead of conforming to the USA laws everyone else is already living by . Because it is good for them.
You guys want to change the rules to fit what you are hunting instead of hunting dogs that can win by the current rules. Because it is better for them .



FACTS !!!!!! Excellent Post !

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Old Post 05-29-2019 09:25 PM
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BigContry
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 905

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Tommy I am an old doggie I come from a time when the only way you knew where your dog was is if it barked. The only tools you had to win a hunt was your mind and your dog. We had no gizmos!! The only way you will know if you are going to like the rules above is get some freinds together and try them a few times. I donít like change but I promise you those rules give an honest dog more ways to win against those new style of dogs they have now. I took a dead last (open trailing ) strike dog and a first tree dog with the meat and beat the brakes off of those new style dogs.


Tar


I'm with you Tar, I'm old school also, so is my hunting buddy, who is 73 or 74. I would just hate to see us going to a squirrel dog type of hunting. I love to comp hunt, and trying to get one ready, if he will get right. Had a fellow say he wants his dog to get treed at lest every 15 mins in a 2 hour hunt, and only expects it to have a coon in only 1 or 2 of the trees. Spend all night chasing that all over the woods. I'm too old and hurt too much for that.

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Old Post 05-29-2019 10:09 PM
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yadkintar
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 8912

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BigContry
I'm with you Tar, I'm old school also, so is my hunting buddy, who is 73 or 74. I would just hate to see us going to a squirrel dog type of hunting. I love to comp hunt, and trying to get one ready, if he will get right. Had a fellow say he wants his dog to get treed at lest every 15 mins in a 2 hour hunt, and only expects it to have a coon in only 1 or 2 of the trees. Spend all night chasing that all over the woods. I'm too old and hurt too much for that. [/QUOT


No that that Curtis posted was just me and Greg debating because we donít like babbling dogs. We both like a good open running dog that trees because most times they tend to be more accurate! The rules proposals is what we are talking about they give you a way to keep that 100 strike 75 tree dog minus you at the end of the night for the win off of you give you some breathing room so you donít have to be flawless.



Tar

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