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Proposal 3 - Coming in to Tree After Judge Arrives
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Option A 83 39.15%
Option B 89 41.98%
Leave as is, per current rule. 40 18.87%
Total: 212 votes 100%
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yadkintar
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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 8899

You quit your job at the beginning of the shift or at the timeclock before you leave you still quit.


And you no longer have a job !!


Tar

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Old Post 05-31-2019 10:25 PM
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Blaine Stout
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Registered: May 2005
Location: Lovilia, IA
Posts: 365

I agree that that was one of my main points.

Also as for no gray area in the rule you are just plainly wrong. We already discussed what distance is coming into the tree. It is the judges discretion so there is gray area to be left up to one person's opinion. Then voted on by cast which once given the option to make someone handle their dog is going to vote yes. It simple from a handlers stand point if I ha e you on a leash you cant score a coon on me.

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Old Post 05-31-2019 11:29 PM
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Richard Lambert
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quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
You quit your job at the beginning of the shift or at the timeclock before you leave you still quit.
And you no longer have a job !!
Tar



You quit your job at the beginning of a shift and you don't get paid for that day. You quit your job at the time clock on the way out and you get paid for that day.

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Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
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Oh my goodness, what does distance have to do with coming into a tree? The dog either quits its track and comes into a tree or it doesn't.

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yadkintar
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Posts: 8899

Now you done went and got me mixed up !!


Tarbaby

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Blaine Stout
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Registered: May 2005
Location: Lovilia, IA
Posts: 365

It doesn't have anything to do with it. But you told me that when they come in it's not considered quitting a track so I cant minus a dog when they quit their track to come in. If that's what they did then they need minused for it.

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Old Post 06-01-2019 02:39 PM
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sleepy head
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Registered: May 2015
Location: IN
Posts: 1895

Not hard to look at a dog and tell if it's tracking or not, you guys that can't shin a tree with a dog tracking in the area are in the wrong sport, sorry

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Richard Lambert
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200 people have voted in the poll now and it is 60/40 not to minus a dog for coming into a tree where a coon is not seen.

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yadkintar
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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 8899

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
200 people have voted in the poll now and it is 60/40 not to minus a dog for coming into a tree where a coon is not seen.




What you talken bout Willis ? Just 5 votes between A and B.


Tarbaby

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Old Post 06-01-2019 03:34 PM
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Richard Lambert
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Add the leave as is votes to B. They are essentially the same.

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shadinc
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Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 1994

If a person has been coon hunting for one year and he can't tell the difference from a dog coming into a tree and a dog that's trailing past a tree, he needs to find a new hobby.

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Old Post 06-01-2019 04:39 PM
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Sgraves
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Registered: Dec 2017
Location:
Posts: 117

quote:
Originally posted by Larry Atherton
If I am judging a cast, when a dog comes into the tree after the cast. I will direct the handler to handle their dog. That being said, I would not expect a handler to have to throw a flying body tackle to stop the dog.

The rule was originally for giving a pack animal a break for coming into all the commotion at a tree. The reason many want to change it is not all coon hounds are pack animals any more, and hunters running independent dogs don't like pack animals getting cut any slack.

So the way i see this rule change is more about what kind of hound general coon hunters want to hunt.

The dog am talking about is not a pack dog . A pack dog would be there before judge showed up. Even with a tree count down in effect I have no problem with a pack dog. If that is what you want to hunt so be it. But if hes packing he better be close enough to get 75 before the 25 sec is up. The dog am talking about is one that is struck in on junk an quits an shows up after judge.

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harleydan1956
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Registered: Jan 2011
Location: Canton, Ohio
Posts: 1658

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
Allen has clearly stated even in the post you posted the dog doesn't need to show any intrest in the tree to be considered "at" the tree.

Yes "at" the tree is the judgment in this equation. Is it 10 yards? 10 feet? You have to be there to decide but if the dog comes in there is no choice it must be handled and it is scored depending on what the other dogs have in the tree.

Think about it like this, if you used your definition of having to be ON the tree to be considered "at" the tree then every dog that was not scored to be treeing satisfactorily would have to be left loose to disrupt or do whatever they want. You can't have dogs running everywhere while you are trying to score a tree. If they are there then you have no choice but to handle them by the rules because it says all dogs "at" the tree must be handled.

Like Allen said even in what you quoted they do not have to show treed or show intrest in the tree to be considered "at" the tree just if they are in the area.

Would you want someone that has a loose tree dog to just be able to say "no I'm not handling my dog" because they are not belly up on the wood and them go over 30 feet and tree a coon on you that your dog had no chance to tree?

Heck using the definition that they have to show treed to be at the tree I would never handle a dog that came in late nor that was loose I would just claim that we need to see what it will do.

We can't do that. If they are there they need to be handled.

But yes "at" the tree is the only judgment in this whole equation. If they are "at" the tree the rules are clear you must handle them.

Depends on what you as a judge say is "at" the tree.

As for me, I am very consistent if it is there it is handled no matter whos dog it is or when it gets there.



I will say it again .. same scenario... The actions of the dog, had the dog been treed there before the 5 minutes, would you plus it up if coon seen? Afterall.. you want to minus it for coming into the tree... but not plus it for the same reason?? .... not coming to tree, just trailing through... Just another excuse by a judge to minus a dog that does not deserve it.

And so we are clear.. if a dog walks by a horse, doesn't bark it it, go to it or even look at it, but is in the vicinity if it, it is molesting livestock. . Just to make sure I get it right...

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Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 16881

Oh my goodness.... One man's "trails by" is another man's "comes into".

A dog can't trail on by because he must be handled when he trails or comes into a tree.

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sleepy head
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Registered: May 2015
Location: IN
Posts: 1895

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Oh my goodness.... One man's "trails by" is another man's "comes into".

A dog can't trail on by because he must be handled when he trails or comes into a tree.



I think I'll do it like Allen says instead. You can holler and scream for me to handle my dog but ain't happening until he quits his track. 50% of trees treed don't have crap in em anymore, I'll be in no hurry to tie one up

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yadkintar
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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 8899

quote:
Originally posted by sleepy head
I think I'll do it like Allen say instead. You can holler and scream for me to handle my dog but ain't happening until he quits his track. 50% of trees treed don't crap in em anymore, I'll be no hurry to tie one up



Yeah I heard that !! What he said !! Allen said so !! Argue with that one Richard see where it gets yah !!


Tarbaby

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Richard Lambert
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Oh my goodness, what did Allen say? Did he say that we didn't have to follow the rule if we didn't like it?

Last edited by Richard Lambert on 06-01-2019 at 08:52 PM

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yadkintar
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Registered: Jan 2013
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Posts: 8899

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Oh my goodness, what did Allen say? Did he say that we didn't have to follow the rule if we didn't like it? [/QUOTE



You keep on I am going to whoooooop the advisor out on yah !!


Tarbaby

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Old Post 06-01-2019 08:56 PM
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sleepy head
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He said the criteria for determining if dog has come in to tree is no different than it is for a dog quitting a track. So, how many times have you seen a dog minused for quitting a track bc he checked a tree?

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Old Post 06-01-2019 08:57 PM
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Rip
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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4743

No he absolutely did not say you didn't have to handle a dog at the tree and as a matter of fact he stated a dog did not have to show ANY interest in the tree to be considered "at" the tree. If he's there hes "at" the tree.

He said he wasn't going to determine how close the dog had to be to be considered "at" the tree any more than you can determine how far a dog has to be away from the tree but if he is there he is supposed to be handled period end of story no matter what he may or may not be doing.

If a dog is "at" the tree then the rule is in black and white, very clear he MUST be handled. No question about it.

If you intentionally don't handle a dog that is at the tree than it is the exact same thing as plussing a possum. It's the same thing you have blatantly violated a rule. Just because the rule needs to be changed, just because it "ain't right" that you save a dog from taking minus by a rule doesn't mean you can ignore the rule.

There are plenty of rules I don't like but I have to enforce them no matter what my opinion on them may be.

Just as this one. I would like to see the rule changed to keep the dog from being saved but until it is officially changed then I will have to follow the black and white rule.

One good rule of thumb would be to judge it just like quitting a track away from a tree. If you would have minused the dog for quitting it's track and it does the same thing at the tree then that means the dog came IN to the tree and he can't be minused. (Remember to be minused for quitting a track he has to quit and "come in" to the cast so if you are at the tree and he "come in" then he is at the tree and can't be minused unless a coon is seen and the dogs treeing are awarded plus points).

I do believe that is what he was meaning but people have taken it to mean the opposite LOL.

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Old Post 06-01-2019 09:19 PM
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Rip
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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4743

quote:
Originally posted by sleepy head
He said the criteria for determining if dog has come in to tree is no different than it is for a dog quitting a track. So, how many times have you seen a dog minused for quitting a track bc he checked a tree?


He's meaning the fact that to minus a dog for quitting a track he has to quit AND COME IN to the cast. Same action results in a different scoring situation. If a dog quits a track and comes in to the cast he is minused for quitting his track if they are not at a tree.

If he does the exact same thing at a tree then he CAME IN to the tree now you can NOT minus the dog because he came in to the tree and his fate is determined by what is in the tree. At the same time, if he would have been minused for quitting a track if there was no tree involved then you have to put a leash on him because by rule he is "at" the tree
because he "came in" to the tree and he must be leashed.

That is what he is meaning and that is what this rule change proposal is trying to fix. Now the dog is saved from minus for quitting his track if he happens to quit it while you are at a tree. We (the ones voting to change it) are trying to close that loop hole.

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yadkintar
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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 8899

If that dog works on by I wont expect him to be handled but if he walks up and says hello fellers I expect him to be handled. He only takes minus now if there is a coon seen. Look at it this way people would love to handle their dog except if there s a coon seen !!! Possum or slick he comes out smelling like a rose.


Tar

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Rip
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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4743

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
If that dog works on by I wont expect him to be handled but if he walks up and says hello fellers I expect him to be handled. He only takes minus now if there is a coon seen. Look at it this way people would love to handle their dog except if their is a coon seen !!! Possum or slick he comes out smelling like a rose.


Tar



Yes sir don't forget circle they are only minused if a coon is seen even though they quit their track that's why i voted to change the rule

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sleepy head
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Registered: May 2015
Location: IN
Posts: 1895

Last weekend at a hunt, this question came up. There were three Master of Hounds and several hunters present. They all agreed that just because a dog came by, or close by the tree, the handler shouldnt be made to handle his or her dog until it showed that it was treed. I have been made to handle my dog when he was cold nosing close by the tree. I didnt like it, but I did and received minus points for it.

A: Your question appears to concern what the term come in to tree means. In most cases, come in to tree is very obvious. It absolutely does not mean that a dog must come in and tree before he must be caught. Once in a while, it does require the use of some judgement. The Judge needs to decide, did the dog come in to the tree in question or didnt he? The criteria for making this decision is no different than that where a dog quits a trail that is being worked and comes in to the cast. If you are looking for a measurable distance on what is considered at the tree and what isnt, you wont get one from me. My advice is, use good judgement and be consistent.

It is always interesting to note that one handler will argue that being 15 feet off the tree is acceptable when his dog has been treed and the coon is seen. Yet, this same handler will argue that 15 feet off the tree is not considered being in to the tree when he is not declared treed and the coon is seen. Again, use good judgement and be consistent.

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sleepy head
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Registered: May 2015
Location: IN
Posts: 1895

quote:
Originally posted by sleepy head
Last weekend at a hunt, this question came up. There were three Master of Hounds and several hunters present. They all agreed that just because a dog came by, or close by the tree, the handler shouldnt be made to handle his or her dog until it showed that it was treed. I have been made to handle my dog when he was cold nosing close by the tree. I didnt like it, but I did and received minus points for it.

A: Your question appears to concern what the term come in to tree means. In most cases, come in to tree is very obvious. It absolutely does not mean that a dog must come in and tree before he must be caught. Once in a while, it does require the use of some judgement. The Judge needs to decide, did the dog come in to the tree in question or didnt he? The criteria for making this decision is no different than that where a dog quits a trail that is being worked and comes in to the cast. If you are looking for a measurable distance on what is considered at the tree and what isnt, you wont get one from me. My advice is, use good judgement and be consistent.

It is always interesting to note that one handler will argue that being 15 feet off the tree is acceptable when his dog has been treed and the coon is seen. Yet, this same handler will argue that 15 feet off the tree is not considered being in to the tree when he is not declared treed and the coon is seen. Again, use good judgement and be consistent.



The way I take it is distance has no bearing on the call if dog is obviously tracking and not slacking

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