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UKC Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.3.0 UKC Forums > Departments > UKC Coonhounds > Proposal #1 - Babbling
Option A, B, C, or leave as is, per current rule?
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Option A 64 27.12%
Option B 78 33.05%
Option C 19 8.05%
Leave as is, per current rule. 75 31.78%
Total: 236 votes 100%
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Lone Pine JB
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2004
Location: Brookville, PA
Posts: 2263

quote:
Originally posted by Fisher13
How do you train
babbling?



give a guy a keyboard and step back...

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Chuck Allen
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2012
Location: Amerika land of the free?
Posts: 1001

Just eliminate the strike points all together , or circle/delete depending on if there is a coon in the tree or not. this will solve the silent/babbling debate.

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Chuck Allen
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2012
Location: Amerika land of the free?
Posts: 1001

quote:
Originally posted by Fisher13
How do you train
babbling?



TOO many caged coons etc. and there are other ways I am sure.

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Rip
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4743

quote:
Originally posted by Fisher13
How do you train
babbling?



Easy, hold the dog back on turn loose til it starts barking and then fail to correct it as it gets worse.

You will have a babbler in no time. Back when I started and babbling was still considered an undesirable trait you made sure not to have those off to the races turn loose with a pup that couldn't keep up or you would have to break babbling later.

Now people do it and then claim to have a great strike dog.

Yeah they strike a coon off the leash every single drop even down the yellow line of the black top LOL.

Yes some of it is genetic and some is learned but some are made just as I described above. Used to they were made on accident. Now they are made to have an advantage. They like to "carry that hunnered with me".

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honalieh
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 1772

A Solution in Search of a Problem?

I've seen way more silent and semi-silent dogs than I've babblers. If we want open trailers, we can't penalize dogs to the extent that open trailers can't win in competition. If you have a silent/semi-silent dog, you SHOULD be at a disadvantage on strike points, just as if you have a last tree dog (split or not) you should be at a disadvantage on tree points. I'm saying this as someone that typically has hunted dogs that I call semi-silent (a half dozen or less barks on track).

Again, strike points are not the problem. Giving 3rd and 4th tree dogs the same points as 1st tree dogs is, to me, a much bigger problem.

If you want open trailers, there has to be some benefit for open trailers. If you want dogs that can tree ahead of (before) the other dogs, there has to be some benefit to that.

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Old Post 06-03-2019 04:59 AM
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Fisher13
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2012
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1995

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
Easy, hold the dog back on turn loose til it starts barking and then fail to correct it as it gets worse.

You will have a babbler in no time. Back when I started and babbling was still considered an undesirable trait you made sure not to have those off to the races turn loose with a pup that couldn't keep up or you would have to break babbling later.

Now people do it and then claim to have a great strike dog.

Yeah they strike a coon off the leash every single drop even down the yellow line of the black top LOL.

Yes some of it is genetic and some is learned but some are made just as I described above. Used to they were made on accident. Now they are made to have an advantage. They like to "carry that hunnered with me".



hm... Ill have to give that a try :P

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Fisher13
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2012
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1995

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
Easy, hold the dog back on turn loose til it starts barking and then fail to correct it as it gets worse.

You will have a babbler in no time. Back when I started and babbling was still considered an undesirable trait you made sure not to have those off to the races turn loose with a pup that couldn't keep up or you would have to break babbling later.

Now people do it and then claim to have a great strike dog.

Yeah they strike a coon off the leash every single drop even down the yellow line of the black top LOL.

Yes some of it is genetic and some is learned but some are made just as I described above. Used to they were made on accident. Now they are made to have an advantage. They like to "carry that hunnered with me".



hm... Ill have to give that a try :P

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Old Post 06-03-2019 10:13 PM
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lblhunter
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2018
Location: west ky
Posts: 38

quote:
Originally posted by honalieh
So what happens when you get a 3 dog cast (2 silent, 1 open)? Do they vote 2-1 (majority) to minus the open dog? We've now given an advantage to the silent or semi-silent dog.

Now, in a 2 dog cast (the vote could be tied), so again no advantage to having an open trailer. We've now given the silent/semi-silent dog equal strike points to the one that actually opens when hitting a track.

Are we trying to eliminate an honest first strike dog? Eliminate open trailers in general? And, no, I've never hunted a babbler or even a consistent first strike dog.

Years back we largely solved the babbling problem by jumping first tree to 125. But, this was before every dog was treeing separate and by themselves.

To me, the bigger problem is that there is no advantage to having a 1st tree dog. 2nd, 3rd, and 4th tree dogs get the same points (if they tree separately). So that makes it so strike points can make the difference because they are all getting 1st tree points (whether they tree 1st or not).

I say call them struck as they strike (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th). Call them treed as they tree (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th). What about splits? I bump them up 25 points each on both strike and tree (additional 50 points possible---except there should always be a 25 point separation between 1st and 2nd, and we don't up points beyond 1st position---don't give 2nd strike as many strike points as 1st strike). In this way, we reward splitting, but not to the extent we currently have where 3rd and 4th tree dogs get just as many tree points as legitimate 1st tree dogs.

Play with this scenario, and you'll find it equalizes the field. Now, if a dog is a first strike dog, and legitimate 1st tree dog (1st to tree), you don't beat them. You're not supposed to. But, if a dog is a 1st strike dog (possible babbler), and 3rd or 4th tree dog (split), we can beat them, because in this scenario, 3rd and 4th tree dogs don't get 1st tree dog points.

So, deep and alone babbler gets 100 strike, 25 tree = 125 + 25 split tree points = 150. My 3rd strike, 1st tree dog gets 50 strike, 125 tree = 175 + 25 split strike points = 200. The babbler is not the problem, it's 2nd, 3rd, and 4th trees (when split) counting just as much as 1st trees that is the problem.


The first dog to tree does have an advantage already. 125 first 75 second. 50 point spread is that not an advantage. A dog that makes a tree first and is split should still get the 125 be it minus or plus. The me 2 dog is the hardest dog to beat. Your real worry in a coon hunt is drawing out with a coon dog. Period!

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Daniel Fitzko
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2006
Location: kernersville,nc
Posts: 220

Just do away with the babbling rule because it always causes a rukus in the woods. At times you light luck up and turn loose on a hot coon and all dogs will be opening up on the chain, you can't say they are babbling. I just believe this one should just go away. Can't prove one babbling and the handler want be honest so there you go having grown men arguing over something they can't control.

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Old Post 06-05-2019 04:31 PM
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Daniel Fitzko
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2006
Location: kernersville,nc
Posts: 220

Just do away with the babbling rule because it always causes a rukus in the woods. At times you might luck up and turn loose on a hot coon and all dogs will be opening up on the chain, you can't say they are babbling. I just believe this one should just go away. Can't prove one babbling and the handler want be honest so there you go having grown men arguing over something they can't control. I say if dog opens within the minute, give the dog or dogs 3 mins to open instead of 8 . If they don't open then minus accordingly. If dog or dogs open after the min then use the 8 min rule as it states.

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sox12
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2006
Location: Ohio
Posts: 982

there was the three minute rule years ago on first turn loose then it got changed to present do the hunters even know what they want for sure it seems they have it one way for awhile then want to change it back.let go back to the three hour hunt and 100 first strike and100 first tree and 300 minus and your out the back door.

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Chuck Allen
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2012
Location: Amerika land of the free?
Posts: 1001

quote:
Originally posted by sox12
there was the three minute rule years ago on first turn loose then it got changed to present do the hunters even know what they want for sure it seems they have it one way for awhile then want to change it back.let go back to the three hour hunt and 100 first strike and100 first tree and 300 minus and your out the back door.


I am ok with that but that will not work with deep and wide , not enough good areas everywhere to hunt a cast of dogs for 3 hours.

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Old Post 06-06-2019 01:22 AM
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Daniel Fitzko
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2006
Location: kernersville,nc
Posts: 220

Chuck

So it comes down to limited places to hunt is the reason for all the changes. Sounds like you need a different type of dog or a good shocking system.

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BooneMcCrary
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2014
Location: EAST TN
Posts: 170

The whole idea of competition hunting should be viewed at from the lens of a hide hunter.

The dog that trees the most coons should win, unless it is minused for slick treeing, running trash, etc.

All split trees should be equal at 125 points. One coon isn't more valuable than the next is it? Then they should be equal.

Do away with strike points or make all strike points the same. You'll have your usual whiners that probably hunt booticks that will argue that finding a coon quicker deserves merit. Well, a true hide hunter would rather see more hides hanging on stretching boards.

Here is my idea, strike and tree points as follows:

Strike:
1st=100
2nd=100
3rd=100
4th=100

Tree:
1st:125
2nd:75
3rd:50
4th:25

One could also argue that tree positions 2-4 should all be 25 each. I'm good with that as well.

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sleepy head
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2015
Location: IN
Posts: 1895

quote:
Originally posted by BooneMcCrary
The whole idea of competition hunting should be viewed at from the lens of a hide hunter.

The dog that trees the most coons should win, unless it is minused for slick treeing, running trash, etc.

All split trees should be equal at 125 points. One coon isn't more valuable than the next is it? Then they should be equal.

Do away with strike points or make all strike points the same. You'll have your usual whiners that probably hunt booticks that will argue that finding a coon quicker deserves merit. Well, a true hide hunter would rather see more hides hanging on stretching boards.

Here is my idea, strike and tree points as follows:

Strike:
1st=100
2nd=100
3rd=100
4th=100

Tree:
1st:125
2nd:75
3rd:50
4th:25

One could also argue that tree positions 2-4 should all be 25 each. I'm good with that as well.



Do this and eliminate all "style" rules and it Sure would make the hunts a lot simpler and enjoyable, best coon dog would win more often. But the breed standard crowd and the style crowd would cry like babies

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Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 16902

Hide hunters don't care which dog is the fastest. Comp hunters want to reward the fastest dog. Hide hunters only care about how many hides they have at the end of the night. Comp hunters want a dog that is quick and looks good doing it. Almost any dog can tree a coon but the top comp dogs should tree coons quick, fast and look/sound good doing it. Comp hunters compete against other dogs. Hide hunters only compete with themselves.

Last edited by Richard Lambert on 06-06-2019 at 02:00 PM

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sleepy head
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Registered: May 2015
Location: IN
Posts: 1895

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Hide hunters don't care which dog is the fastest. Comp hunters want to reward the fastest dog. Hide hunters only care about how many hides they have at the end of the night. Comp hunters want a dog that is quick and looks good doing it. Almost any dog can tree a coon but the top comp dogs should tree coons quick, fast and look/sound good doing it.


I've been a hide hunter since the mid 70s and never wanted a slow dog, skinned coon for a fur buyer back then and I can tell the type off dogs that put hides on wire aren't slow

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sleepy head
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Registered: May 2015
Location: IN
Posts: 1895

Richard, a true hide man and a pleasure hunter are not the same

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yadkintar
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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 8905

We won big hunts with high scores back in the day with our hide dogs they hustled for 3 hrs non stop. And we wasent walking a mile to trees when they struck at our feet either. But the most common dog in ukc right now is that 100 strike 75 tree dog right now I understand how that game and most that donít like the new rules do to.


Tar

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sleepy head
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2015
Location: IN
Posts: 1895

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
We won big hunts with high scores back in the day with our hide dogs they hustled for 3 hrs non stop. And we wasent walking a mile to trees when they struck at our feet either. But the most common dog in ukc right now is that 100 strike 75 tree dog right now I understand how that game and most that donít like the new rules do to.


Tar



If all kcs went to a two dog finals and stuck a judge with each dog, when dogs spilt up the cast split up, I think the mile deep stuff would die off

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Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 16902

Pleasure hunters have fun. Coonhunting is a job for hide hunters. Tarbaby, everybody knows now that you just post to stir up trouble. You don't really even believe what you post. You even told us that you just "play possum" or make stuff up. And now you call or text other people and try to get them to do the same thing to "stir the board up".

Last edited by Richard Lambert on 06-06-2019 at 03:15 PM

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nitehunter2004
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2006
Location: Newton, North Carolina
Posts: 12020

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Pleasure hunters have fun. Coonhunting is a job for hide hunters. Tarbaby, everybody knows now that you just post to stir up trouble. You don't really even believe what you post. You even told us that you just "play possum" or make stuff up. And now you call or text other people and try to get them to do the same thing to "stir the board up".

Thatís rite.

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BooneMcCrary
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2014
Location: EAST TN
Posts: 170

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Hide hunters don't care which dog is the fastest. Comp hunters want to reward the fastest dog. Hide hunters only care about how many hides they have at the end of the night. Comp hunters want a dog that is quick and looks good doing it. Almost any dog can tree a coon but the top comp dogs should tree coons quick, fast and look/sound good doing it. Comp hunters compete against other dogs. Hide hunters only compete with themselves.


In competition, we should be rewarding the dog that trees the most coons. You pretty much validated my post. Thanks.

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Old Post 06-07-2019 11:08 AM
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yadkintar
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 8905

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Pleasure hunters have fun. Coonhunting is a job for hide hunters. Tarbaby, everybody knows now that you just post to stir up trouble. You don't really even believe what you post. You even told us that you just "play possum" or make stuff up. And now you call or text other people and try to get them to do the same thing to "stir the board up".



I donít need backup from nobody I am a grown man. But if I did call you and give you advise you might should listen because my win average is a whole lot better than yours !! I hunt a winner I just donít go to red dog hunts to see other red dogs and talk about red dogs.


Maybe there is a reason nobody calls you lol.


Tarbaby

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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 16902

Everybody needs a little backup every now and then but I can't argue with anything else since you are a much better hunter, trainer, handler than I am.

Last edited by Richard Lambert on 06-07-2019 at 12:47 PM

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