UKC Forums UKC Front Page :: Field Operations :: Show Operations :: Registration :: UKC Store
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Registration is free! Calendar Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Search Home  
UKC Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.3.0 UKC Forums > Departments > UKC Coonhounds > Proposal #1 - Babbling
Option A, B, C, or leave as is, per current rule?
You do not have permission to vote on this poll.
Option A 64 27.12%
Option B 78 33.05%
Option C 19 8.05%
Leave as is, per current rule. 75 31.78%
Total: 236 votes 100%
  [Edit Poll (moderators only)]

Pages (4): « 1 [2] 3 4 »   Last Thread   Next Thread
Author
Thread Post New Thread    Post A Reply
ov_blues
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2007
Location: Pomeroy, Ohio
Posts: 2555

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
Actually in my area at least option A worked very well and it was very rare to have a babbling dog on a cast.

Now it's rare not to have two or three babblers on every cast. I feel that is a direct result of changing the rule and allowing them a minute every drop to get out of light of the judge and giving time to create doubt as to what they are doing when they are babbling.



Rip what I saw was the first three minutes back then were about the same as it is now in the first minute and then the next drop if more than one opened within the first few yards and they had to strike their dog it was an argument to get them minused. It must not have worked everywhere then or they wouldn’t have changed it to what it is now although the minute rule may be even worse in some aspects. I personally prefer the AKC rule but it’s not one of the options.

__________________
John Smith
Ohio Valley Bluetick Kennel

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-15-2019 06:48 AM
ov_blues is offline Click Here to See the Profile for ov_blues Click here to Send ov_blues a Private Message Click Here to Email ov_blues Find more posts by ov_blues Add ov_blues to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Nathan Phenix
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2017
Location: West Plains Mo
Posts: 284

What is the AKC rules on babbling/ strike points

__________________
Nathan Phenix
417-255-5697

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-15-2019 01:14 PM
Nathan Phenix is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Nathan Phenix Click here to Send Nathan Phenix a Private Message Find more posts by Nathan Phenix Add Nathan Phenix to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
pamjohnson
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 1616

Pat what type of dogs you have bred in the past or what type of strike dog your breeding in the future shouldn't have any bearing on the rules.
This day and age we need less preference on what we like and more of a system that can't be manipulated.
I see dogs being struck off the leash and barking on every thing from trash tracks, dog tracks, or just plain thin air. We don't need a minute or 3 minutes or a vote or arguments about what the dog barked on or about.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-15-2019 02:13 PM
pamjohnson is offline Click Here to See the Profile for pamjohnson Click here to Send pamjohnson a Private Message Click Here to Email pamjohnson Find more posts by pamjohnson Add pamjohnson to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Pat Bizich
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2004
Location: northeast
Posts: 1129

YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT!!!

I am not arguing about what I am hunting but rather using it as example ......…READ ,READ ,READ

" Most people can not distinguish the difference between babblers and honest strikes."

I DON"T WANT THESE TYPE DOGS PENALIZED BECAUSE OF STUPID JUDGING !!!!
THE BIGGEST CRITICS OWN DOGS THAT CAN"T KEEP UP WITH A DOG WITH A GOOD NOSE.
AND I WILL KEEP REPEATING THESE REASONS AS THE ARGUEMENT!!!

And there is NOT ANY ONE OF YOU MAKING AN ARGUEMENT to minus a dog for babbling that can say with 100 % certainty 100% every time a dog is indeed babbling.

I have seen it. Lived it. And to be honest I can tell the difference most of the time. But I too have been baffled and fooled when hunting with strange dogs the first time.

This is an true example that actually happened.....
Guy at the zones .First dump of night. Dog opens. He strikes immediately. No other dog is opening. Right away HUNTING JUDGE starts making noise and rest of cast says dog is babbling. As soon as his strike is minus , this guy restrikes his dog. This dog has never stopped opening. Soon other dogs are chiming in. This track went less than 200 yards. And all dogs got treed together.
The guy hunting this dog is a well know competition hunter that keeps good dogs and has previously won a world hunt.
Now he got over 100 dollars just in entry fees ,plus his travel ,food, motels,etc. to get this crappy call.
He needed to play catch up the rest of the night and lost this cast because of this BAD CALL.
I ask what was the sense of this guy training ,hunting,promoting an above average strike dog just to get beat down because the other three dogs could not smell the track as well ????
ALL BECAUSE THE CAST MEMBERS DID NOT KNOW THE DIFFERENCE OF BABBLING AND AN HONEST STRIKE.

You say....We don't need a minute or 3 minutes or a vote or arguments about what the dog barked on or about.
Fine.. I just don't want it left up to an opinion rather then facts to minus a dog.
Under my suggestion the dog in the above example would have never been able to gotten minus.
Under my suggestion dogs loose mouthing would be accountable for bad strikes and honest dogs would not get penalized.

I am all for minus for babblers I just don't like the idea of honest strike dogs as collateral damage.

__________________
IT SEEMS THAT EVERYTIME A BREED OR LINE OF DOGS GET POPULAR IT EVENTUALLY LEADS TO ITS RUINATION BY UNINFORMED PEOPLE BREEDING WITHOUT DOING THEIR RESEARCH FIRST.

Gone but never forgotten:
NtChGrCh Dryfork Punkin
NtChGrCh Dryfork Little Blue Baby Doll
2009 Pa Show Dog Of The Year
GrCh Dryfork Little Black Book

Home of:

2009,2013,2018 Pa. State
Show Handler Of The Year
GrCh Dryfork Black Dog Raine
Gr.Ch. Black Dog Black Cherry
Gr.Ch. Make My Day Sunny
2018 Pa. Show Dog Of Year
Gr.Ch. Batman's Poison Ivy
2011&2013 WTDA Pa State Champion
2011&2013 Overall Hunt For The Cure
Ch. Jay's Greenridge Heidi
In memory of my best friend "Jay"

Last edited by Pat Bizich on 05-16-2019 at 12:24 AM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-15-2019 11:51 PM
Pat Bizich is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Pat Bizich Click here to Send Pat Bizich a Private Message Find more posts by Pat Bizich Add Pat Bizich to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
pamjohnson
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 1616

I understand 100% before all that.
I am not for minus on the babblers. That's right NOT.
Your example is the perfect example of why we should not be deciding to minus a dog for babbling.
We should at best be holding dogs accountable for there strike but defiantly not there position they barked.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-16-2019 12:56 AM
pamjohnson is offline Click Here to See the Profile for pamjohnson Click here to Send pamjohnson a Private Message Click Here to Email pamjohnson Find more posts by pamjohnson Add pamjohnson to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
ole hoss
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2013
Location: ky
Posts: 2191

Re: STRIKE POINTS

quote:
Originally posted by G.W. Harring
"In my opinion"

ALL strike points should be worth the same and only be used for accountability.

NO advantage should EVER be given to "the first dog to bark" and by using a tier level strike point system that's all you are really doing and all you will ever do.
I find it funny that we put rules/points in place to promote hunting a dog that opens the quickest, then put rules in place against it when they do. Babble, Argue, pitch, bitch, question and in many instances give undeserved advantage and for what?? Because we think barking first should be rewarded?? Really?? Try equal strike points on a buddy hunt some time. It puts a whole new perspective on things.
Notice I said "first dog to bark" I didn't say "first dog to honestly open on a coon track" because it is impossible to determine that period!! I understand that was the intent, but there is just NO WAY you can ever prove it. Strike points in comp hunts can play a HUGE factor in the outcome.
Determining the best "COONDOG" based on which dog opens it's head first?? Really?? That is ridiculous and does nothing but promote babbling. You can't get a faster strike than one right off the lead, right?!? LOL

How a dog uses it's mouth on the ground is nothing more than personal preference and should in NO WAY be used as a tool to measure the quality of a real COONDOG nor the outcome of a coon hunt. I learned years ago that the one making the most noise isn't always the one getting the most done. I've hunted with all styles from silent to wide open, but I've NEVER judged how good of a coondog they were by how fast they got their head open. The best hide dogs I've ever hunted with were my Dad & Granddad's crossbreds back in the late 60's and early 70's. Several were pretty tight, others not, strike meant nothing but the shed walls were always covered.

Which dog is the best COONDOG?? Simple, the dog that can tree the most COONS in a set amount of time. Not trees, not circles, and most certainly NOT the one that "barks" first. (And NO, my dogs aren't silent or even tight mouthed, if anything they are very quick to open.)

I am just of the opinion of...strike "smike"....the whole strike thing is WAAAY over rated and all to often misused because of the format. How fast a hound gets open is absolutely no measure of a coon dog to me......impress me....alone, in company, wet, dry, hot, cold, near or far.... play whatever hand your dealt and show me as many coon as you can in the area I'm hunting and do it in short order!!

Again, JMO

Greg


Fact!!!

__________________
jason

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-16-2019 05:55 AM
ole hoss is offline Click Here to See the Profile for ole hoss Click here to Send ole hoss a Private Message Click Here to Email ole hoss Find more posts by ole hoss Add ole hoss to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
ov_blues
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2007
Location: Pomeroy, Ohio
Posts: 2555

quote:
Originally posted by Nathan Phenix
What is the AKC rules on babbling/ strike points


2. One (1) minute time to be kept each time dog(s) are released. No dog to receive strike points dur- ing that minute unless immediately followed by a tree call. Fifty (50) strike points will be recorded for dog(s) barking within the last five seconds of the minute. Remaining dogs, when struck receive 25 points. This rule will only be in effect when all dogs are loose and competing for 100 strike points. The judge will count aloud the last five seconds of the minute and announce, “minute is up,” and will indicate which dogs are struck and recorded for 50 strike points if any.

__________________
John Smith
Ohio Valley Bluetick Kennel

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-16-2019 02:00 PM
ov_blues is offline Click Here to See the Profile for ov_blues Click here to Send ov_blues a Private Message Click Here to Email ov_blues Find more posts by ov_blues Add ov_blues to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Rester
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2016
Location: Saucier MS
Posts: 33

The rule was put n for the hound that opened a few times and went on hunt n. Pkc put the rule into effect. Ukc followed em but ukc never stated to to my knowledge that’s why the rule was stated. Pkc used to state it n there rules and it must been thrower out and just the minute applied before having to strike. Dogs do not smell a coon everywhere they go point blank

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-16-2019 03:27 PM
Rester is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Rester Click here to Send Rester a Private Message Find more posts by Rester Add Rester to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
BawlsDeep
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2015
Location: Dixie
Posts: 11

I have to question the accuracy of the polls.... where I’m located there are generally 2-3 babbling dogs in each cast so usually majority of the dogs are babbling that I’ve been with of late. It is definitely an advantage in those cases cause if vote is taken when it is questioned, man hunting only nonbabbler gets out voted. You can’t expect someone to vote to give up their edge and vote to implement a rule that’s gonna take the advantage away. It would be like NRA members voting for or pushing for gun control. Same concept.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-21-2019 03:12 PM
BawlsDeep is offline Click Here to See the Profile for BawlsDeep Click here to Send BawlsDeep a Private Message Find more posts by BawlsDeep Add BawlsDeep to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
honalieh
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 1773

A little history

This is my version of history based on memory and personal experience.

From the inception of competition hunting up through 1980 (I believe), it was always 100 1st strike, 100 first tree. During this time I saw a lot of the Hammer bred dogs and some Boyds Little Joe dogs that were pretty much automatic 1st strike dogs (sometimes it could be honest, but babbling was a problem). And, if you drew 2 of them, they'd have 1st and 2nd strike. They would cover quick, and like a glove. You had to call your 1st tree quick just to stay even on points. And, when you have to call quick mistakes will be made.

Effective Jan 1981 ( I believe), 1st tree was raised to 125. This tilted the advantage to the 1st tree dog (or, as Dave Dean said: "Just when I bred a dog to fit the rules, they changed the rules." So, now a 3rd strike, 1st tree dog wins the cast.

There's another rule that has existed from inception up through today. That is, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th tree dogs get just as many tree points as 1st tree dogs (if they are split). Just as Dave Dean had exploited the strike rules to advantage, others followed suit to exploit the tree point rules for split trees. Some then bred and trained for dogs, that if they couldn't tree ahead of other dogs, to tree away from other dogs (get just as many tree points as a 1st tree dog). That's where we are today. 1st Tree Dogs get 125 tree points, but so do 2nd, 3rd, and 4th tree dogs (if they split from the 1st tree dog). Under this scenario, a 4th tree dog gets just as many points as a 1st tree dog, so now the strike points matter again. WHY SHOULD WE CONTINUE TO PENALIZE 1ST TREE DOGS, BY ALLOWING 2ND, 3RD, and 4TH tree dogs to get just as many tree points? The one common denominator of any dog that split trees, is that another dog has already TREED BEFORE THEM!!!

So now, a 3rd strike, 3rd tree dog (split) is getting 50+125 =175, as opposed to 100 (for 3rd strike, 3rd tree). A 1st strike, 1st tree dog is getting 100+125= 225. So, instead of being 125 pts ahead of the 3rd strike, 3rd tree dog, it's now only 50 pts ahead, and some are suggesting changes to make the 3rd and 3rd dog equal to the 1st and 1st dog (points wise). If we change the rules/ideas away from the idea that all dogs can be 1st tree dogs, the argument against babbling dogs (AND HONEST STRIKE DOGS) will go away.

Remember, 3rd Strike, 1st Tree beats everything (if we give tree points in the order called---instead of giving credit to them as if they are all 1st tree dogs). I've had dogs that would split tree to a fault, and they were never as good as the dog that was already treed with the meat.

I think it would be better to reward the 1st tree dog, rather than trying to find a way to get a 3rd and 3rd dog just as many points as a 1st and 1st dog.

Remember, if you have a split tree dog, that means another is already treed (give them credit). In my opinion, the dog that has already treed deserves more points.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-23-2019 04:46 AM
honalieh is offline Click Here to See the Profile for honalieh Click here to Send honalieh a Private Message Click Here to Email honalieh Find more posts by honalieh Add honalieh to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
ov_blues
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2007
Location: Pomeroy, Ohio
Posts: 2555

That is a good point. I guided a late round pro hunt one night. Dogs all struck within a minute on a good track. Didn’t run 50 yards and one dog treed. The other three shut up then one dog treed about 75 yards from the first dog treed, then another one treed about 50 yards to the right of that one and then the fourth dog treed about 30 yards from where the first dog was treed. So they were all treed kind of in a rectangular shape and all within five minutes. All of them had coon but the only thing that separated them was the difference in strike points. I don’t remember which order they were struck in but the dog that treed fourth could have been the one with the first and first out of the four. The first dog treed was the fastest to get treed.

__________________
John Smith
Ohio Valley Bluetick Kennel

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-23-2019 05:24 AM
ov_blues is offline Click Here to See the Profile for ov_blues Click here to Send ov_blues a Private Message Click Here to Email ov_blues Find more posts by ov_blues Add ov_blues to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
pamjohnson
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 1616

Well said Honalieh

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-23-2019 01:54 PM
pamjohnson is offline Click Here to See the Profile for pamjohnson Click here to Send pamjohnson a Private Message Click Here to Email pamjohnson Find more posts by pamjohnson Add pamjohnson to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
honalieh
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 1773

Honest 1st strike 1st tree

Let's say I have an outstanding hound that is an honest 1st strike, and honest 1st tree dog. How will the scenario play out when I draw two silent dogs that are slow to tree (but will split)?

Option B: The two guys hunting the silent dogs can (by majority vote) minus my open dog by claiming he is babbling. So, we essentially eliminate the open trailer, and benefit the silent trailers.

Option C: The two guys hunting the silent dogs can reduce the open trailers strike points to their level, thus eliminating the advantage of hunting an open dog in the hunts.

Now, my legitimate 1st strike dog, 1st tree dog falls treed with the meat. I call him treed. Meanwhile, the two silent trailing, slow tree dogs split away from my 1st strike, 1st tree dog.

Under option B, my honest 1st and 1st dog is getting 100- strike, 50+ restrike? and 125+ tree = 75+. Meanwhile, the two silent are getting 50+ strike, 125+ tree (treed 10 minutes after my dog, but are split = 175+ each for them. So, the legitimate 1st strike, 1st tree dog (with the meat) loses by 100 points.

Under option C, a legitimate 1st strike and 1st tree dog can fare somewhat better. It has a chance to "tie" the 3rd strike, 3rd tree dog (that splits). They all get 3rd strike (50) + 1st tree (125).

Maybe, if the pups I am working on turn out to be slow on both ends, I could benefit from these type of rules. But, I assure you, I'm not going to breed for slow/no strike and slow to tree (split or not) just because of rules that penalize honest 1st and 1st types of dogs. To me, 1st is better than 3rd. I won't change what I hunt just because the rules make 3rd equal to 1st (sometimes better---if you minus 1st strike for babbling or honest strike).

What is wrong with having a 1st strike, 1st tree dog?, and why are we trying to come up with rules to penalize/negate them?

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-29-2019 04:38 AM
honalieh is offline Click Here to See the Profile for honalieh Click here to Send honalieh a Private Message Click Here to Email honalieh Find more posts by honalieh Add honalieh to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Pat Bizich
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2004
Location: northeast
Posts: 1129

Re: Honest 1st strike 1st tree

quote:
Originally posted by honalieh

What is wrong with having a 1st strike, 1st tree dog?, and why are we trying to come up with rules to penalize/negate them?



Exactly!! My same argument.

I am all for minus for babblers I just don't like the idea of honest strike dogs as collateral damage.

Well, I said it before and I will keep repeating it . Most people either can not or do not know the difference between a good strike dog or a babbler.

I am perplexed that I notice certain people are the same ones that continuously complain about babblers. Or the number of people that claim they run into these babblers so often .When I have only experienced a few in all the years I have been at it.
One guys post claims ... where I’m located there are generally 2-3 babbling dogs in each cast so usually majority of the dogs are babbling that I’ve been with of late.

I remember another guy saying if a dog throws its head up and opened he automatically would minus them for babbling. Obviously he never saw or owned a true lay up, winding, or running type hound. And maybe some of these guys that think they are hunting with babblers are actually drawing one of these type.
Years ago I was hunting a dog for a friend in the nite hunts. She got involved in a couple incidents on the hunts I had entered . I hunted with this female regularly and never had seen her do this at home so of course I concluded she was faultless.
While lamenting this problem to a very well know breeder and competitor in the hunts . He made a statement that to this day I have not forgotten.

When you keep having the same problem at every hunt,
" YOU NEED TO START LOOKING AT YOUR OWN DOG."

So if you are one that believes you are drawing 2-3 babblers in one hunt or week after week....Maybe you need to start looking at what is on the end of your lead.

__________________
IT SEEMS THAT EVERYTIME A BREED OR LINE OF DOGS GET POPULAR IT EVENTUALLY LEADS TO ITS RUINATION BY UNINFORMED PEOPLE BREEDING WITHOUT DOING THEIR RESEARCH FIRST.

Gone but never forgotten:
NtChGrCh Dryfork Punkin
NtChGrCh Dryfork Little Blue Baby Doll
2009 Pa Show Dog Of The Year
GrCh Dryfork Little Black Book

Home of:

2009,2013,2018 Pa. State
Show Handler Of The Year
GrCh Dryfork Black Dog Raine
Gr.Ch. Black Dog Black Cherry
Gr.Ch. Make My Day Sunny
2018 Pa. Show Dog Of Year
Gr.Ch. Batman's Poison Ivy
2011&2013 WTDA Pa State Champion
2011&2013 Overall Hunt For The Cure
Ch. Jay's Greenridge Heidi
In memory of my best friend "Jay"

Last edited by Pat Bizich on 05-30-2019 at 10:51 PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-30-2019 10:37 PM
Pat Bizich is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Pat Bizich Click here to Send Pat Bizich a Private Message Find more posts by Pat Bizich Add Pat Bizich to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
pamjohnson
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 1616

Have you ever heard this bogus statement at the start of a cast? Judge announces if you strike under the minute and the dog doesn't bark for such an amount or get treed in some short order or some other crazy statement that I am not remembering at the moment?
Yeah it's not just that they can or can't tell if there truly babbling. They can't even interpret the black and white rules let alone make a judgment call on other handlers dogs.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-31-2019 12:13 AM
pamjohnson is offline Click Here to See the Profile for pamjohnson Click here to Send pamjohnson a Private Message Click Here to Email pamjohnson Find more posts by pamjohnson Add pamjohnson to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
yadkintar
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 8929

Evidently y’all don’t watch the live videos or play by plays of major $$$$ hunts. Thems babblers and they use it for an advantage. At the local level it don’t matter anyways at a 4 dog hunt. You just loosing $20 heck that won’t buy a good hamburger lol.



Tar

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-31-2019 12:46 AM
yadkintar is offline Click Here to See the Profile for yadkintar Click here to Send yadkintar a Private Message Click Here to Email yadkintar Find more posts by yadkintar Add yadkintar to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
G.W. Harring
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2016
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 20

.

To try and help clear up some misinterpretation of the point I’ve been trying to make, I put together this mock scenario. Please read it real slow and maybe even twice and please do it with patience as it’s sometimes hard for me to put my thoughts into words that make sense, but I give you my word it will be my last attempt to get my point across on this subject. LOL

A certain county had a problem with an over population of coon in their area and hired (4) men with registered coonhounds to come thin them down. They were to all hunt together and at the end of one weeks hunting they would be paid $100 cash for every coon hide that they turned in. They were allow to shoot as many coon as their dogs could tree taking only (1) coon per tree, and the owner of the dog that treed the coon first would get credit for the coon and would be able to keep the hide. At the end of (1) week they were to return to the Fair Grounds and trade in their hides for CA$H. They all agreed and left out hunting.

They hunted every night and they covered the whole county. They hunted swamps, hills, crops and big timber. Some night’s coon moved well and others they didn’t. Hot tracks, cold tracks, lay-ups, they experienced all of it throughout the week. At the end of the week the group of four hunters rolled into the Fair Grounds with their pile of hides. Who would have guess it, all totaled they had taken exactly 100 coons!! Dog A-65, Dog B-20, Dog C-13 and Dog D-2, all totaling $10,000.00 in hides.

It just so happens Pat was the owner of Dog A, who was obviously the TRUE COONHOUND out of the four dogs. He treed ahead of the other three with a coon 65 times that week for a total of $6,500.00 CA$H. He ran cold tracks, he treed lay-ups and he worked out feed tracks with multiple coons running together, he even caught several on the ground. He was consistent in the fact that regardless when and where you dropped him, he had a coon when he treed and he did it faster than the other 3 dogs the majority of the time.

I on the other hand was packing Dog D, who didn’t fare so well. No doubt I was hunting a lesser/slower track dog and/or a less accurate tree dog than the other three or both. He did happen to stumble across 2 so I ended up with $200.00.

Just when we are getting ready to settle up, the Ole boy with the moneys says, “You know, regardless of the totals we are seeing here in hides, I am of the belief that there should be a “strike” credit given and since NO HUMAN can say with 100% certainty when a dog actually “strikes a coon track” or just “barks” I’m going to call it what it really is and give credit to the “FIRST BARK” dog. Hot track, cold track, lay-up, feed track, swamps, hills none of that matters to get this credit (ALL THEY HAVE TO DO IS BARK FIRST), I want to know which dog was the dominant “first bark” dog because I believe he deserves credit for “barking”. Well…. I said, “Mister that would be ME!!” Ole Dog D can wind coon scent from 400+ yards and “bark”, he’s got such a good nose he’ll “bark” WAAAAAY before them other dogs. Those other dogs just have to be hot nosed pop up dogs because they don’t “bark” near as much or near as fast as mine. Mine is the BESTEST BARKER and he “barked” before ANY of them other counterfeit hounds, why he must have started every track because he “barked” first EVERY TIME and you KNOW FOR CERTAIN if he “barks” he’s ALWAYS got coon scent because after all he’s a coon dog and also because “I” can tell. I know this to be fact because the only time he isn’t smelling coon scent is when he isn’t barking!! (Hee, Hee, Hee!!)

The Ole boy was so impressed with my dog’s dominant “barking” ability he decided that everyone else should give me 1/2 of their money and why not….they’re his rules, and he thinks hounds that are open mouthed and “barking” first at WHATEVER (BECAUSE IT CAN’T BE PROVEN OTHERWISE) should get just as much credit as a dog that trees the coon first right?? $100 & $100 and anything else is the first looser. You should have to “bark” before you tree a coon or you are a mutt and “barking” first should be worth more. In competition hunts it can be worth 75pts more!! And if my dog “barks” FIRST and gets credit for it and one of them other slow 2nd, 3rd or 4th “barking” coondogs can tree the coon, I’ll still get paid, right? Sure, A, B or C could have “barked” on “honest” (still a guess) coon scent, but hey my dog did “bark” FIRST and since we can’t prove any differently you’ll have to give that “bark” credit to me. He agreed……

Old tally (awarding credit to the dog that figured out the track, ran it faster and treed the coon first REGARDLESS OF A STRIKE ORDER): COONDOG A-(65 coon $6,500.00), COONDOG B-(20 coon $2,000.00), COONDOG C-(13 coon $1,300.00) and FIRST BARK DOG D-(2 coon $200.00)

New tally (awarding credit to the dog that figured out the track, ran it faster and treed the coon first AND awarding credit to the first dog that “barked” – BE IT AN HONEST STRIKE OR NOT BECAUSE IT CAN’T BE PROVEN): COONDOG A-(65 coon $3,250.00), COONDOG B-(20 coon $1,000.00), COONDOG C-(13 coon $650.00) and FIRST BARK DOG D-(2 coon $5,100.00)

If the rules of the competition reward your first “bark” dog, by all means, enter that sucker and promote him and argue with anyone that would try to get rid of your “bark” advantage in that competition. Just don’t try to convince me that EVERY first “bark” dog is a TRUE COONDOG because they “bark” first and that a “bark” is nothing more than a “bark” until I see a coon.

Because NO ONE can know with certainty what each and every dog is truly opening on, we can only refer to it as a “bark”. Don’t muddy the water by calling it a “strike”. Once a person admits this and substitutes the word “bark” in place of the word “strike” everywhere you read it in any rules, you will see just how ridiculous it is to give points/$ for “barking” and just how easily it can be abused. So what?? A dog “barked” first!! It doesn’t make him a harder hunter, a better track dog, a colder nosed dog or even a coondog. Any mutt can bark too, but if we’re comparing mutts…..give me the one that trees coons, you can keep the “barker”!!

If you get nothing else out of this silly mock scenario remember this, TRUE COONHOUNDS…..TREE COON regardless of what order they “bark”! Some “bark” quick, some medium, some slow and some don’t “bark” at all, but until they are sitting under a real coon…….it’s just a “bark”.

PS – I’m trading Dog D off to Tar for some fish. LOL!!

PSS – Pat, I’m sorry I didn’t have a name for your dog in this mock hunt so I just used Dog A. (Besides, all the good names like X-Con, Willy, Shack, Dark, Knock-Out, and some others were already taken….)

Again, just “MY OPINION” so rant away, I’m done with this subject for a while….. (My Crayon just broke!)

__________________
CORNERSTONE TREEING WALKERS
Greg & Marcia Harring
Syracuse, Nebraska
402-209-5053

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-31-2019 06:49 PM
G.W. Harring is offline Click Here to See the Profile for G.W. Harring Click here to Send G.W. Harring a Private Message Find more posts by G.W. Harring Add G.W. Harring to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Sgraves
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2017
Location:
Posts: 123

To many men with money pushing that style dog an in the past few years to much money has been won . You will never get a person hunting one that style to admit what he has. It’s competition coon hunting an money is involved. Everybody knows the rest of the story.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-31-2019 07:04 PM
Sgraves is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Sgraves Click here to Send Sgraves a Private Message Click Here to Email Sgraves Find more posts by Sgraves Add Sgraves to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
honalieh
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 1773

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Evidently y’all don’t watch the live videos or play by plays of major $$$$ hunts. Thems babblers and they use it for an advantage. At the local level it don’t matter anyways at a 4 dog hunt. You just loosing $20 heck that won’t buy a good hamburger lol.

Tar



That's because 2nd, 3rd, and 4th tree dogs (when split---not quick enough to tree 1st) are getting just as many points as 1st tree dogs thereby eliminating any advantage of having a 1st tree dog. Award tree points strictly based on how quick they get treed, and the issue with open trailing dogs will be insignificant.

I certainly understand anyone that has an issue with babblers. Most of the dogs I've had over the years have been on the tight side. I also understand that in comparison to a silent/tight dog, anything else is a babbler by comparison (honest or not).

Do we really want to create rules to benefit the tight mouth dog that is slow to get treed? I understand some may like their slow/no strike, slow tree dogs. But, should we really be considering rules to make them equal (points wise) to dogs that are quicker to strike a coon track, and quicker to tree a coon?

Why turn them loose together if 3rd and 3rd can be equal to 1st and 1st?

And, in UKC, 3rd strike, 1st tree wins everytime, unless mistakes are made (providing the 1st tree dog gets more tree points than the 2nd and 3rd dogs to tree--- split or not).

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 06-01-2019 05:28 AM
honalieh is offline Click Here to See the Profile for honalieh Click here to Send honalieh a Private Message Click Here to Email honalieh Find more posts by honalieh Add honalieh to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
yadkintar
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 8929

Dog A gets last strike for 25 and first tree for 125 = 150.


Dog B gets 100 strike and is 500 yards from dog A and instantly shuts up and covers dog A for 75 = 175.


Babble deep and alone ain’t the game they are playing in ukc. Babble and cover quick and minus you if they need to is.


Tar

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 06-01-2019 11:25 AM
yadkintar is offline Click Here to See the Profile for yadkintar Click here to Send yadkintar a Private Message Click Here to Email yadkintar Find more posts by yadkintar Add yadkintar to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Stan Ferrell
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2014
Location:
Posts: 684

Giving a dog points for barking, without being able to identify what he is barking at is, well, stupid.
Why don't we just give dogs points for tree'in, then go get them without looking?
Why make rules more complicated? get rid of strike points, give only one dog tree points. Give each consecutive tree a lessor value as to prevent ties.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 06-01-2019 01:01 PM
Stan Ferrell is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Stan Ferrell Click here to Send Stan Ferrell a Private Message Find more posts by Stan Ferrell Add Stan Ferrell to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Bill(Chew)
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Washington, NC
Posts: 3084

And this attitude, my friends, is why we are breeding so many slick treeing idiots.

Also dogs split up and take different tracks and you want to penalize the dogs that have a longer or more difficult track?

__________________
Bill Harper
Washington, NC
252-944-5592

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 06-01-2019 04:29 PM
Bill(Chew) is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Bill(Chew) Click here to Send Bill(Chew) a Private Message Click Here to Email Bill(Chew) Find more posts by Bill(Chew) Add Bill(Chew) to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Chuck Allen
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2012
Location: Amerika land of the free?
Posts: 1002

Babbling is either , genetic, learned , or trained behavior.

__________________
The more laws a nation has the more corrupt the nation.

When the law of the land becomes unjust outlaws will rise to take their place in history.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 06-02-2019 02:16 PM
Chuck Allen is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Chuck Allen Click here to Send Chuck Allen a Private Message Find more posts by Chuck Allen Add Chuck Allen to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Fisher13
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2012
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1995

quote:
Originally posted by Chuck Allen
Babbling is either , genetic, learned , or trained behavior.


How do you train
babbling?

__________________
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man."
Mark Twain

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 06-02-2019 02:26 PM
Fisher13 is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Fisher13 Click here to Send Fisher13 a Private Message Find more posts by Fisher13 Add Fisher13 to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Fisher13
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2012
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1995

Babbling

I commend UKC for taking on this challenge.

Guys that hunt babblers often make the argument that they hunt the dog because of its high level of drive and the babbling is a side effect of the result.

Others I have heard argue that babbling is just a bad habit that trainers are choosing not to break because it does give them an advantage in the hunts.

What ever the case as long as there is advantage to this style of dog they will continue to grow in popularity. IMO. Everyone likes to win.

The goal of the rule needs to be to eliminate the advantage of the babbling dog. However I'm not sure how one does that. Since the principal behind first strike is to reward the dog who can find a coon track first. In here lies the problem. There is no way to take away the advantage of the babbler with out taking away the race to find the coon.

This possibly be result of a larger problem has more to do with a result of a larger problem. That there is a lack of accountability to the breeders themselves. Guys breed whatever they want whenever they want to who ever they want. This will obviously result in a dog that has varing breed standards, temperament issues.

I commend ukc for taking on this issue. I enjoy a dog that is driven to work but there is a line between being outright obnoxious and a barking idiot. I hope you guys can find a way to solve this complex problem.

__________________
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man."
Mark Twain

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 06-02-2019 02:39 PM
Fisher13 is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Fisher13 Click here to Send Fisher13 a Private Message Find more posts by Fisher13 Add Fisher13 to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:37 PM. Post New Thread    Post A Reply
Pages (4): « 1 [2] 3 4 »   Last Thread   Next Thread
Show Printable Version | Email this Page | Subscribe to this Thread


Forum Jump:
 

Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is OFF
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
 
< Contact Us - The United Kennel Club >

Copyright 2003-2017, United Kennel Club
Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.3.0
(vBulletin courtesy Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.)