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UKC Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.3.0 UKC Forums > Departments > UKC Coonhounds > Proposal #1 - Babbling
Option A, B, C, or leave as is, per current rule?
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Option A 64 27.12%
Option B 78 33.05%
Option C 19 8.05%
Leave as is, per current rule. 75 31.78%
Total: 236 votes 100%
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Allen / UKC
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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 8582

Proposal #1 - Babbling

1. Babbling.
ē Option A: Allow three minutes grace period on the first turnout of the hunt only, after which dog must be declared struck on or before the third bark.

ē Option B: If a question arises pertaining to a dog babbling when declared struck; a vote shall determine the scoring of strike points as follows:
a. If majority of the cast agrees the dog was babbling, strike points shall be minused.
b. If the vote results in a tie, strike points shall be deleted.
c. If majority of the cast agrees the dog was not babbling, strike points shall remain assigned as called.

ē Option C: If a question arises pertaining to a dog babbling when declared struck; a vote shall determine the scoring or assignment of strike points as follows:
a. If majority of the cast agrees the dog was babbling; all dogs shall receive 50 strike points when declared struck, providing a third strike position is available.
b. If the vote results in a tie; all dogs shall receive 50 strike points when declared struck, providing a third strike position is available.
c. If majority of the cast agrees the dog was not babbling; strike points shall remain assigned as called.



2019 UKC RULE PROPOSAL CLARIFICATIONS AND NOTES
Be advised, the following notes are the opinions/statements of those who submitted the proposals and may or may not necessarily reflect the opinion of UKC.

PROPOSAL 1: Most judges find current babbling rules difficult to enforce. Mostly due to the debates that generally follow and, therefore, is often ignored. Regardless, it seems to have become more of an issue than ever before and it may be time to seriously consider any change that would make it easier for judges to enforce, if that is possible, or a change that would not give the automatic strike dog an advantage they donít deserve the credit for. A great deal of thought, as well as consideration for various opinions, has been put into this item. Even then, it seems there is no magic wand that can create a fix-all. Prop 1 offers a couple options to consider in this effort and we hope the committee will take a good bit of time and think this one through.
Option A is the babbling rule of old. It was much easier to enforce as such a dog would have three barks before it got ten yards up the road. Now that same dog has a whole minute grace period and by that time the dog may be out a good distance and itís simply harder to get judges to make the call, even when they have no doubt about it. However, thereís a lot of concern that 1(a) may hurt entries more than weíd like to see as it would basically keep owners from entering those kinds. If that is a concern, option B may be the better one to consider. At least it would not give a babbler as much of an advantage over the honest strike dogs. Food for thought.

Last edited by Allen / UKC on 05-09-2019 at 06:17 PM

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Nathan Phenix
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2017
Location: West Plains Mo
Posts: 284

Option C- If cast votes dog was babbling it will still receive 50 strike points same as honest strike dog that's hasnt open. No way you can reward a dog with 50 strike points for being a babbler.

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pamjohnson
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 1616

quote:
Originally posted by Nathan Phenix
Option C- If cast votes dog was babbling it will still receive 50 strike points same as honest strike dog that's hasnt open. No way you can reward a dog with 50 strike points for being a babbler.
may be better than the 100 it is currently getting. What I don't care for is all the dang voting instead of listening. It's kinda like a indecisive squirrel in the middle of the road. It's just asking for issues.

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pamjohnson
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2012
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Posts: 1616

I just can't vote for any of them because there still not the right way to fix the issue.

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Chuck Allen
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2012
Location: Amerika land of the free?
Posts: 1005

quote:
Originally posted by pamjohnson
I just can't vote for any of them because there still not the right way to fix the issue.


I think , I am right there with you on this one.

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honalieh
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 1774

So what happens when you get a 3 dog cast (2 silent, 1 open)? Do they vote 2-1 (majority) to minus the open dog? We've now given an advantage to the silent or semi-silent dog.

Now, in a 2 dog cast (the vote could be tied), so again no advantage to having an open trailer. We've now given the silent/semi-silent dog equal strike points to the one that actually opens when hitting a track.

Are we trying to eliminate an honest first strike dog? Eliminate open trailers in general? And, no, I've never hunted a babbler or even a consistent first strike dog.

Years back we largely solved the babbling problem by jumping first tree to 125. But, this was before every dog was treeing separate and by themselves.

To me, the bigger problem is that there is no advantage to having a 1st tree dog. 2nd, 3rd, and 4th tree dogs get the same points (if they tree separately). So that makes it so strike points can make the difference because they are all getting 1st tree points (whether they tree 1st or not).

I say call them struck as they strike (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th). Call them treed as they tree (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th). What about splits? I bump them up 25 points each on both strike and tree (additional 50 points possible---except there should always be a 25 point separation between 1st and 2nd, and we don't up points beyond 1st position---don't give 2nd strike as many strike points as 1st strike). In this way, we reward splitting, but not to the extent we currently have where 3rd and 4th tree dogs get just as many tree points as legitimate 1st tree dogs.

Play with this scenario, and you'll find it equalizes the field. Now, if a dog is a first strike dog, and legitimate 1st tree dog (1st to tree), you don't beat them. You're not supposed to. But, if a dog is a 1st strike dog (possible babbler), and 3rd or 4th tree dog (split), we can beat them, because in this scenario, 3rd and 4th tree dogs don't get 1st tree dog points.

So, deep and alone babbler gets 100 strike, 25 tree = 125 + 25 split tree points = 150. My 3rd strike, 1st tree dog gets 50 strike, 125 tree = 175 + 25 split strike points = 200. The babbler is not the problem, it's 2nd, 3rd, and 4th trees (when split) counting just as much as 1st trees that is the problem.

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pamjohnson
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Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 1616

Honeila
You make some very good points.

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TylerOSU
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2017
Location: Miami, Ok
Posts: 287

Question Here

Why is everybody so caught up on babbling? In the last 30-40 casts I've been on I have only drawn 1 dog that left barking. But she barked the whole night 120 barks a minute on the ground, in the air, it didn't matter. Now tell me how in the world can you minus that? You can't. Its simple as that. Instead of worrying about babbling how about you worry about getting to yourself and getting treed for 125. UKC already took the strike thing out of it by allowing 125 tree point to 100 strike points. You can get struck for 50 and tree for 125 and still have the same as someone getting struck for 100 and treed for 75. Who cares if someone out strikes you. Have those coons in trees to yourself and you wont have to worry about it.

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G.W. Harring
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Registered: Nov 2016
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 20

STRIKE POINTS

"In my opinion"

ALL strike points should be worth the same and only be used for accountability.

NO advantage should EVER be given to "the first dog to bark" and by using a tier level strike point system that's all you are really doing and all you will ever do.
I find it funny that we put rules/points in place to promote hunting a dog that opens the quickest, then put rules in place against it when they do. Babble, Argue, pitch, bitch, question and in many instances give undeserved advantage and for what?? Because we think barking first should be rewarded?? Really?? Try equal strike points on a buddy hunt some time. It puts a whole new perspective on things.
Notice I said "first dog to bark" I didn't say "first dog to honestly open on a coon track" because it is impossible to determine that period!! I understand that was the intent, but there is just NO WAY you can ever prove it. Strike points in comp hunts can play a HUGE factor in the outcome.
Determining the best "COONDOG" based on which dog opens it's head first?? Really?? That is ridiculous and does nothing but promote babbling. You can't get a faster strike than one right off the lead, right?!? LOL

How a dog uses it's mouth on the ground is nothing more than personal preference and should in NO WAY be used as a tool to measure the quality of a real COONDOG nor the outcome of a coon hunt. I learned years ago that the one making the most noise isn't always the one getting the most done. I've hunted with all styles from silent to wide open, but I've NEVER judged how good of a coondog they were by how fast they got their head open. The best hide dogs I've ever hunted with were my Dad & Granddad's crossbreds back in the late 60's and early 70's. Several were pretty tight, others not, strike meant nothing but the shed walls were always covered.

Which dog is the best COONDOG?? Simple, the dog that can tree the most COONS in a set amount of time. Not trees, not circles, and most certainly NOT the one that "barks" first. (And NO, my dogs aren't silent or even tight mouthed, if anything they are very quick to open.)

I am just of the opinion of...strike "smike"....the whole strike thing is WAAAY over rated and all to often misused because of the format. How fast a hound gets open is absolutely no measure of a coon dog to me......impress me....alone, in company, wet, dry, hot, cold, near or far.... play whatever hand your dealt and show me as many coon as you can in the area I'm hunting and do it in short order!!

Again, JMO

Greg

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sleepy head
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Registered: May 2015
Location: IN
Posts: 1895

Re: STRIKE POINTS

quote:
Originally posted by G.W. Harring
"In my opinion"

ALL strike points should be worth the same and only be used for accountability.

NO advantage should EVER be given to "the first dog to bark" and by using a tier level strike point system that's all you are really doing and all you will ever do.
I find it funny that we put rules/points in place to promote hunting a dog that opens the quickest, then put rules in place against it when they do. Babble, Argue, pitch, bitch, question and in many instances give undeserved advantage and for what?? Because we think barking first should be rewarded?? Really?? Try equal strike points on a buddy hunt some time. It puts a whole new perspective on things.
Notice I said "first dog to bark" I didn't say "first dog to honestly open on a coon track" because it is impossible to determine that period!! I understand that was the intent, but there is just NO WAY you can ever prove it. Strike points in comp hunts can play a HUGE factor in the outcome.
Determining the best "COONDOG" based on which dog opens it's head first?? Really?? That is ridiculous and does nothing but promote babbling. You can't get a faster strike than one right off the lead, right?!? LOL

How a dog uses it's mouth on the ground is nothing more than personal preference and should in NO WAY be used as a tool to measure the quality of a real COONDOG nor the outcome of a coon hunt. I learned years ago that the one making the most noise isn't always the one getting the most done. I've hunted with all styles from silent to wide open, but I've NEVER judged how good of a coondog they were by how fast they got their head open. The best hide dogs I've ever hunted with were my Dad & Granddad's crossbreds back in the late 60's and early 70's. Several were pretty tight, others not, strike meant nothing but the shed walls were always covered.

Which dog is the best COONDOG?? Simple, the dog that can tree the most COONS in a set amount of time. Not trees, not circles, and most certainly NOT the one that "barks" first. (And NO, my dogs aren't silent or even tight mouthed, if anything they are very quick to open.)

I am just of the opinion of...strike "smike"....the whole strike thing is WAAAY over rated and all to often misused because of the format. How fast a hound gets open is absolutely no measure of a coon dog to me......impress me....alone, in company, wet, dry, hot, cold, near or far.... play whatever hand your dealt and show me as many coon as you can in the area I'm hunting and do it in short order!!

Again, JMO





Greg



Pretty much my opinion also, back when dogs packed the current system made more since. Now not so much now

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Cory Highfill
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2004
Location: Clarksville, AR
Posts: 917

Re: STRIKE POINTS

quote:
Originally posted by G.W. Harring
"In my opinion"

ALL strike points should be worth the same and only be used for accountability.

NO advantage should EVER be given to "the first dog to bark" and by using a tier level strike point system that's all you are really doing and all you will ever do.
I find it funny that we put rules/points in place to promote hunting a dog that opens the quickest, then put rules in place against it when they do. Babble, Argue, pitch, bitch, question and in many instances give undeserved advantage and for what?? Because we think barking first should be rewarded?? Really?? Try equal strike points on a buddy hunt some time. It puts a whole new perspective on things.
Notice I said "first dog to bark" I didn't say "first dog to honestly open on a coon track" because it is impossible to determine that period!! I understand that was the intent, but there is just NO WAY you can ever prove it. Strike points in comp hunts can play a HUGE factor in the outcome.
Determining the best "COONDOG" based on which dog opens it's head first?? Really?? That is ridiculous and does nothing but promote babbling. You can't get a faster strike than one right off the lead, right?!? LOL

How a dog uses it's mouth on the ground is nothing more than personal preference and should in NO WAY be used as a tool to measure the quality of a real COONDOG nor the outcome of a coon hunt. I learned years ago that the one making the most noise isn't always the one getting the most done. I've hunted with all styles from silent to wide open, but I've NEVER judged how good of a coondog they were by how fast they got their head open. The best hide dogs I've ever hunted with were my Dad & Granddad's crossbreds back in the late 60's and early 70's. Several were pretty tight, others not, strike meant nothing but the shed walls were always covered.

Which dog is the best COONDOG?? Simple, the dog that can tree the most COONS in a set amount of time. Not trees, not circles, and most certainly NOT the one that "barks" first. (And NO, my dogs aren't silent or even tight mouthed, if anything they are very quick to open.)

I am just of the opinion of...strike "smike"....the whole strike thing is WAAAY over rated and all to often misused because of the format. How fast a hound gets open is absolutely no measure of a coon dog to me......impress me....alone, in company, wet, dry, hot, cold, near or far.... play whatever hand your dealt and show me as many coon as you can in the area I'm hunting and do it in short order!!

Again, JMO

Greg



Excellent post.
You probably just made more sense in a few paragraphs than some people that post daily ever will. I don't really care about strike position and how a dog opens on the ground. But somehow equating it with a dog's ability to tree coons has always made me scratch my head.

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lblhunter
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2018
Location: west ky
Posts: 39

Tree points

Throw the strike points in the garbage can and award the dog trees 1st tree points. Everybody else 0. Get rid of ole babbler and ole grand night me 2. After all isn't a dog that can tree the most coon what we want to see win. And I agree with Mr Harring

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honalieh
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 1774

Example Scenarios

Assumptions: The quickest strike dogs are the slowest tree dogs, and the slowest strike dogs are the quickest tree dogs.

Dog A: 1st Strike, 3rd Tree
Dog B: 2nd Strike, 2nd Tree
Dog C: 3rd Strike, 1st Tree

Scenario 1: ( Current Rules---all dogs tree together).

A= 100 Strike + 50 Tree = 150.
B= 75 Strike + 75 Tree = 150.
C= 50 Strike + 125 Tree = 175

In this scenario, the last strike dog/ first tree dog wins on most plus points. Even if the first strike dog got second tree, the last strike/first tree dog still wins with most plus tree points.

Scenario 2: (Current Rules---all dogs split treed).

A= 100 Strike + 125 Tree = 225.
B= 75 Strike + 125 Tree = 200.
C= 50 Strike + 125 Tree = 175.

In this scenario, the strike points make the difference. But, the real issue is that we have totally neutralized the advantage of having a first tree dog. The second and third tree dogs get just as many tree points as the first tree dog.

Scenario 3: (My rules idea---all dogs split treed).

A= 100 Strike + 50 Tree = 150, + 0 Split Strike Points (already at the top) + 25 Split Tree Points = 175 Points.

B= 75 Strike + 75 Tree = 150, + 0 Split Strike Points (can't bump up to equal first position) + 25 Split Tree Points = 175 Points.

C= 50 Strike + 125 Tree = 175, + 25 Split Strike Points + 0 Split Tree Points (already at the top) = 200 Points.

In this scenario, we're right back to where we started as if the dogs were competing against each other. The last strike/first tree dog still wins, and even if the first strike dog took second tree we still win with most plus tree points.

We'd be back to giving and advantage to first tree dogs, even if they were last strike dogs. Face it, it's the legitimate first tree dogs that are being penalized the most because we are allowing 2nd and 3rd tree dogs to get just as many tree points. We aren't rewarding 1st tree dogs properly by allowing 2nd and 3rd tree dogs (if they split) to get just as many tree points as a 1st tree dog. If you fix that problem, you'd still have complaints, but they would come from those with the 3rd strike, 3rd tree dogs.

If I were to race Husein Bolt in a 100 yard dash, he'd smoke me (in straight out competition). But, I'd say we are going by UKC tree point rules. While he may go 100 yards in 9.0 seconds--he gets 125 points, I'd walk 100 yards to the concession stand (different destination) in 60.0 seconds---I get 125 points. If I opened my mouth first, as in "OMG, I can't compete with him, I'd get strike points. I WIN!!! And, I'd have the meat!!!

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Rester
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Registered: Jan 2016
Location: Saucier MS
Posts: 33

Recently guided a cast 4 dog. Cast dogs. Donít ask me who actually struck the track cause do not no to this dday although did tree coon mile away.its ever cast I been on or guided. Month ago guided one. Cast hounds no body strikes. Older fellow dog stokes at 75 yards he declared struck. Cast says u struck under the minute. Old fellow said I donít have a babbling dog. I believe if ya were to wake up the breeders of yesterday from the dead assort em out on cast they would hold a meeting afterward and say what n the worl have yíall done

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Am I reading Option A wrong or are people really that crazy? 🤦🏻‍♂️

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Tone it down guys, or they will delete another good topic...

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Pat Bizich
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Registered: May 2004
Location: northeast
Posts: 1129

DO AWAY WITH THE ENTIRE BABBLING RULE. PERIOD
Strike them when they open and minus them if quiet too long just like the rules existing now.

I find it odd/perplexing that the writers explanation for a needed change is that it has recently become more of a problem .
I submit that the problem is more the breeding of hot nosed dogs and the hunters inability to know when in fact a dog is truly babbling.
Too many of the people complaining about babblers have no idea how to tell the difference between babblers, dogs that can wind a coon, dogs that have cold noses.

Because ,oh my, BOO HOO HOO my dog isn't opening too so your dog must be babbling BOO HOO HOO.

Just trying to get rid of the true track dog they can't compete with for old tight mouth, deep and lonely. A style dog that would not be possible but for the advent of tracking systems and then the Garmin .
Lets see you guys hunt those same dogs without a Garmin and see how many nights a week you hunt and still get home in time to get some sleep before getting up for work the next day.

The people griping the most got hot nosed tight mouthed dogs that can't compete with lay up dogs or dogs with a great nose.So they are trying to change the rules to favor their hot nose tree dog that can't smell the other dogs track.

I have always bred for and strive to hunt first or second type dogs on both track and tree . With better than average noses. (I can't stand to own or keep hot nosed dogs )So they are quick to open. I know the difference between babblers and honest strike dogs. And I will tell you my dogs have been accused of babbling more than once that my accusers were eventually left eating crow. It is strange they always seem to finish their track and the other dogs at the tree with them sometimes never having opened on the entire track.

So yes, I get angry when I see people trying to change rules to basically take away from the true tracking hounds to favor hot nose pop 'em up dogs .

How anyone gets enjoyment out of cutting Old Ready loose. Staring at your Garmin. Old Ready going 1000 + yards without you ever hearing a track. You see Old Ready getting treed on your Garmin. But you can't hear him cause he is two hills over. Walking back to your truck. Driving a road to get closer to old Ready. Then going into a tree to look for a coon.And you never heard one iota of a track bark. This is walking to trees.

Competition hunts were started to show who had the best dogs at a time when coon were thin. Many of the so called competition dogs of today would never have made it when these hunts were created.

And for you guys that say a strike has no significance. A dog has to learn how to track before it can finish one at a tree. Unless there again you have a hot nosed tight mouth can't run a track if he tripped over it style dog.
Something a mutt farm dog can do.
Once again hunts were created to judge who had the best dogs. And certainly finding a track quickly had criteria enough then to be awarding points to that ability.

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Tom anderson
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Registered: Dec 2014
Location:
Posts: 106

Itís simple give dog three barks then they have to strike move track time to 6 minutes if they donít open minus have tree count down second close after 30 sec third close after 1 min when you recut it is 25 strike the dog that trees coon wins every time

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ov_blues
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Registered: Feb 2007
Location: Pomeroy, Ohio
Posts: 2557

Option A was around a long time ago and was changed because it didnít work back then and will still have the same problems today.

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Old Post 05-14-2019 04:52 AM
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berger
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Lockridge Iowa
Posts: 2688

quote:
Originally posted by Kenneth Tavares
Am I reading Option A wrong or are people really that crazy? 🤦🏻‍♂️



I am thinking I am reading option B wrong or people really are that crazy!!

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Old Post 05-14-2019 09:29 AM
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Rester
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2016
Location: Saucier MS
Posts: 33

Doe todayís hunters even no why the one minute rule was put into affect and what registrie established the one minute rule and put it in to effect

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Old Post 05-14-2019 01:12 PM
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Pat Bizich
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2004
Location: northeast
Posts: 1129

Re: STRIKE POINTS

quote:
Originally posted by G.W. Harring
"In my opinion"

ALL strike points should be worth the same and only be used for accountability.

NO advantage should EVER be given to "the first dog to bark" and by using a tier level strike point system that's all you are really doing and all you will ever do.
I find it funny that we put rules/points in place to promote hunting a dog that opens the quickest, then put rules in place against it when they do. Babble, Argue, pitch, bitch, question and in many instances give undeserved advantage and for what?? Because we think barking first should be rewarded?? Really?? Try equal strike points on a buddy hunt some time. It puts a whole new perspective on things.
Notice I said "first dog to bark" I didn't say "first dog to honestly open on a coon track" because it is impossible to determine that period!! I understand that was the intent, but there is just NO WAY you can ever prove it. Strike points in comp hunts can play a HUGE factor in the outcome.
Determining the best "COONDOG" based on which dog opens it's head first?? Really?? That is ridiculous and does nothing but promote babbling. You can't get a faster strike than one right off the lead, right?!? LOL

How a dog uses it's mouth on the ground is nothing more than personal preference and should in NO WAY be used as a tool to measure the quality of a real COONDOG nor the outcome of a coon hunt. I learned years ago that the one making the most noise isn't always the one getting the most done. I've hunted with all styles from silent to wide open, but I've NEVER judged how good of a coondog they were by how fast they got their head open. The best hide dogs I've ever hunted with were my Dad & Granddad's crossbreds back in the late 60's and early 70's. Several were pretty tight, others not, strike meant nothing but the shed walls were always covered.

Which dog is the best COONDOG?? Simple, the dog that can tree the most COONS in a set amount of time. Not trees, not circles, and most certainly NOT the one that "barks" first. (And NO, my dogs aren't silent or even tight mouthed, if anything they are very quick to open.)

I am just of the opinion of...strike "smike"....the whole strike thing is WAAAY over rated and all to often misused because of the format. How fast a hound gets open is absolutely no measure of a coon dog to me......impress me....alone, in company, wet, dry, hot, cold, near or far.... play whatever hand your dealt and show me as many coon as you can in the area I'm hunting and do it in short order!!

Again, JMO

Greg




I don't agree with your analysis. The way I read it you are contradicting yourself.
You say all strikes should be equal yet go on to say your dogs are quick to open ? Why are you hunting quick strike dogs ? You don't think your dog deserves credit for being better and quicker at knowing where to find a coon track?

You say...
Which dog is the best COONDOG?? Simple, the dog that can tree the most COONS in a set amount of time. Not trees, not circles, and most certainly NOT the one that "barks" first. (And NO, my dogs aren't silent or even tight mouthed, if anything they are very quick to open.)
My answer...More often then not the dog that barks first IS the dog that is hustling to find a coon ,has a natural instinct where to find a coon,or probably got the better nose. And in some cases just in the right place.
The quicker a track is found which, my gosh, amazingly coincides with a quick striking dog the quicker you will tree coons. Simple, isn't it?

You say..How fast a hound gets open is absolutely no measure of a coon dog to me.
My answer...I disagree. If speed don't count WHY are they called "COMPETITION" hunts ? Opening coincides with striking and yes some do open as soon as they get the scent A hard hunting get gone dog you are basically saying should have no advantage of points over the other three dogs in the cast lulling around that then cover the dog that did all the work? Then you say they should all get equal credit? That is just plain absolutely crazy.
(Isn't this the same reason everyone is crying for a tree count down? To give the quick tree dog more credit for being quicker?)

Now your statement I can agree....I didn't say "first dog to honestly open on a coon track" because it is impossible to determine that period!! I understand that was the intent, but there is just NO WAY you can ever prove it

This is my argument as to why I do not agree with proposals B and C. It is too arbitrary and open to interpretation by each individual present .

I do not want a bunch of 20 some year old inexperienced cast members voting to minus any dog that they have no way of knowing or understanding, the difference between a true babbler or honest strike.

My argument is again DO AWAY WITH THE BABBLING RULE.PERIOD.
Strike when they open and minus if they fail to keep the track open for a required time.

A better rule change might be : On each recast "if struck under the first minute of grace " dog struck must keep the track open until another dog has been struck. If they fail to open for any " one minute" after being struck they will receive minus on that strike .
This is taking it out of a judgement call and laying it squarely on the dog doing wrong.

One other thing The rules still say a dog must prove to open trail .
So for you guys advocating dismissing strike points you are saying they are not important. So there still is a significance associated with it.

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Old Post 05-14-2019 05:16 PM
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G.W. Harring
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2016
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 20

.

Pat,

I can tell you are passionate about the sport and I respect that. I post very little, but thought I would share ďmy opinionĒ which by the way combined with a nickel might get you a 5 cent cigar. Iím an old, fat, broke down hay seed from Nebraska that never claimed to know anything, but like you, I enjoy coon hunting. I guess we both have that passion in common. Although I have been to a couple big shows in a couple KCís Iíll tell you Iím a hide hunter at heart and that may be where ďmy opinionĒ comes from.

Without taking up 10 pages (as Iím surely not a typist) Iíll try to answer your questions. If I fail to explain ďmy opinionĒ to your satisfaction feel free to give me a call (402) 209-5053 as it may be easier for me to explain and I enjoy talking dogs anyway. You sure arenít required to agree with me, last I checked this is an open forum and you are more than entitled to ďyour opinionĒ as well. We canít all like the same things and thatís what makes the world go around. After all, neither you nor I are right or wrong, weíre just sharing opinions.
I said strikes should all be equal just to have a method for accountability if you are going to even give strike points(this covers your must prove open trail) But more on that later with a suggestion on what to do with strike points all together.
Yes, the dogs I have at this time are fairly quick to open. Why am I hunting dogs that are quick to open?? Because thatís just how they are?? Iíd still hunt the same dogs if they were slow to open. Like I said, I put no weight in which dog barks first. One of my best dogs back in the late 80ís was a 3-4 strike dog and that was back when they would scratch a babbler, not promote one. He was also a 1st tree dog that had COONS in ANY company and he did because he was a good/fast track dog in a pack or by himself and he didnít care which, but he got it done quickly. Some dogs open more when the track gets tough and most open more when it gets hot, he opened less and used his brain and nose and not his mouth. He also caught a lot of coon on the ground. I have a dog now that is quick to open and uses plenty of mouth, but also catches his share (the most was 3 in one night) The getting your head open quickly is the easy part, any dog can bark at coon scent or any scent or at NO SCENT AT ALL for that matter, but that doesnít tree the coon and in ďmy opinionĒ doesnít qualify you to be a coondog nor should you get an advantage over one that is. Iíve never skinned or sold a dog bark yet.

(You say) My answer...I disagree. Opening coincides with striking and yes some do open as soon as they get the scent A hard hunting get gone dog you are basically saying should have no advantage of points over the other three dogs in the cast lulling around that then cover the dog that did all the work? Then you say they should all get equal credit? That is just plain absolutely crazy.

Yes, I agree some open as soon as they get scent, but more often than not now days that scent is dirt and you nor anybody else but the good Lord can determine which one. It appears by your statement that you are assuming that a dog that opens quickly ďis a hard going get gone dogĒ I donít agree. Nothing ties those to aspects together. Iíve witnessed both extremes as Iím sure you have too.
I realize if you hunt in a KCís hunt you follow their rules and if they gave points for the dog that pissed first there would be people pouring water down their dogís throat and have them on an IV before every hunt and probably be breeding for smaller bladders. If your goal is to win hunts, then you better be hunting a dog that can win by that KCís rules or youíre taking a knife to a gun fight because Iíll promise you the people you are going to compete against are and should be. After all, those are their rules right? If that was my goal you can bet Iíd be hunting an accurate babbling loaner. Why not try to get them strike points, all you have to do is bark.

Letís work this backwards. The end goal is what? TREE COON! That said, as ďjust plain absolutely crazyĒ as you may think this idea is, humor me for a little bit and imagine a hunt with these rulesÖÖ.

Rule #1: Common sense and integrity shall rule out on all decisions. All ties will be broke with a coin flip.
1st tree Ė 100pts, tie the dog with 1st tree while scoring and cut the rest if any (optional), squall the full 3 mins, split pts if caught on ground. NO other tree points given, NO strike pts, NO circle pts, NO minus pts, NO leash lock (cut him in 1 second or leave him on the leash all night handlers decision) treat it like you were pleasure hunting with a rifle during hide season and keeping track of which dog treed the most coon in a set amount of time by the number of hides you held at the end. You could write the rules on the back of a match book cover and as crazy as those rules may seem to you, they make perfect sense to me. Why? Because a dog that could consistently win under those rules would be a coon dog in my eyes. If your haulín a back packer youíre donating your entry to a coon dog. If you rely on first ďbarkĒ points to carry you, again donate. If you usually win by trying to get everyone else minused, donate. Slick treeír that wins by circle pts,Ö.donate. BUUUT first strike dog, last strike dog, bark at a fart, if you have a dominate track driveín dog that trees real live coons faster than the rest in your cast, my gosh, you should win a lot!! And congratulations, ďIN MY OPINIONĒ you have a coon dog.
Safe hunt'n - Greg

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Old Post 05-14-2019 09:20 PM
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Rip
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4743

quote:
Originally posted by ov_blues
Option A was around a long time ago and was changed because it didnít work back then and will still have the same problems today.


Actually in my area at least option A worked very well and it was very rare to have a babbling dog on a cast.

Now it's rare not to have two or three babblers on every cast. I feel that is a direct result of changing the rule and allowing them a minute every drop to get out of light of the judge and giving time to create doubt as to what they are doing when they are babbling.

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Old Post 05-15-2019 01:47 AM
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Kenneth Tavares
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Registered: Mar 2004
Location: 1322 Ginger Trl Manning, S.C. 29102
Posts: 2890

Option A will get the dogs that open a few barks and shut up. It will NOT get these modern day automatic strike dogs.

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Tone it down guys, or they will delete another good topic...

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Old Post 05-15-2019 02:30 AM
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Rip
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4743

quote:
Originally posted by Kenneth Tavares
Option A will get the dogs that open a few barks and shut up. It will NOT get these modern day automatic strike dogs.


Nothing says they have to shut up to be caught babbling. Doesn't matter if they shut up or not without the minute to cover for them you as the judge can throw the light on them and watch them babble and minus them before they get 30 yards LOL.

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