Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

So much I don’t understand about the way things are done today. Well I do understand it but I refuse to change my beliefs and standards to fit in. Give me an ole track driving , honest mouth , accurate tree dog with a high tenor mouth for these old ears and I am good.


Tar

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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: north ala.
Posts: 902

I'm with you Tar except I like a heavy mouth

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Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Todd, North Carolina
Posts: 254

When I went looking for a new pup to start last year I decided on a Lone Pine-bred Treeing Walker. I didn't have to do much digging to find proof that the line produced coon dogs. One of the first things I talked to the breeder Randy Smith about was that I wanted a dog that would be easy to live with. I wanted a pup with a head full of sense to process the things I wanted to teach him. He assured me that both the sire and dam were smart, easily trained hounds with great dispositions. I later would observe these dogs and find that to be exactly the case. I have not been disappointed. I have a hound that knows when to turn the energy switch on and off between the house and the woods. I think if we want to have easy-to-live-with hounds we have to do our homework and get pups from hounds that behave that way. JMO.

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Registered: May 2006
Location: Pamplin Va.
Posts: 454

I have fooled with a lot of pups the last 25 years, every one was different, everyone taught me something. About 2 years ago I started getting into clicker training, obedience training, crate training and incorporating it into my hounds, it has made a huge difference. I get my pups at weaning and handle them daily from then on. These are working dogs, they need their minds challenged as well as physical exercise. I will say I only keep two dogs at a time, one older and a pup, I keep what I have time for. If these guys that train these high powered dogs for the military, that are over the top with drive and desire can harness that we can certainly transfer that training to the hound world.

I would not discount their being some food related issues to behavior, but I would lean more towards the additives in dog food, just for the simple fact most humans can clear up a lot of health issues by eating clean. My wife is a school teacher, todays answer is if you have a kid that is high strung, you medicate him, forget that he has little to no play time, forget he may be a hands on doer versus a book worm, just dope him up, and get him thru the day!

There is probably a fine line between heart and desire and pure crazy, I think it is a combination of things and not one determining factor, genetics, food, environment all play a part.

The one thing that has proven out for me time after time, is that heart and desire to go when they are tired, hurt, bad weather etc is not a common trait, in hounds or in humans, the ones that have it are a step above. As I reflect over the articles that have been written about some of our better hounds over the years, You pretty much found a common theme of having heart to get the job done when most needed.

I have an 8 month old pup now that is wired up a little more than the last few I have had, he has a decent recall on him, loads on command and his front legs and head looks like they have been shoved thru a meat grinder when you are done hunting, he has not developed any finess in the woods, he splits the barbed wire fence between the 2nd and 3rd wire, he crosses water like moses parting the red sea, I look forward to the challenge of harnessing all that energy, he is not an idiot in the kennel. I do think how he has been handled up to this point has had an impact on his behavior in the kennel.

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Dean Jamerson

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Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Jacksonville NC
Posts: 149

Boys it really comes down to this. What matters is what you want in a dog or what I want. I am 50 yrs old now with two boys. Our woods are small patches here and there. I must have a dog that is very smart and obedient. If I turn him out in a piece of woods I want him to hunt that piece of woods. Not the piece 1 mile away. I do not touch my dogs ever. They are tone broke and when I leave the tree they are behind me all the way to the truck. They load when I say load. Have not had a leash on them in years. They suit me but may not suit you. They get 25 to 30 coons per season knocked out and we have thick coon and I have two happy boys that love their hounds and do all the work that is required to take care of them. We are home by 930pm most nights. 25 years ago when I was in competition these two dogs would not have suited me. Now they are the best for me and my boys and we have a lot of fun. So really the dogs to suit you are out there you just have to find what suits you!

Roy Jarman
Eastern NC

8yr old Redbone Male-Byrds Mac Attack
6yr old Walker Female-Legendary Trap & Unstable Miss Rachel

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Roy Jarman

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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1911

Dean, Dan&Ann...

Excellent posts...🧐

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Jacksonville NC
Posts: 149

Now for my opinion with whats wrong with today's dogs is different than most. I was a NC probation officer for 20 yrs and now I teach and coach baseball in the NC school system..Hate to make this comparison but the same thing that is going on with our hounds is going on with most of our children of today. Things that would not be tolerated with a hound or a child is very tolerated today..30 years ago the child would be corrected and the hound would be culled not sold and definitely not bred. Now days the behavior of the child is over looked and the behavior of the hound if he wins is over looked and then he gets bred over and over and over and the trait we all don't like mainly slick treeing is circled and we are paying the price on both fronts...just what I see boys...My daddy told me many times in our search for a nice hound...."son don't ever fall in love with a sorry dog" and he was so right!

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Roy Jarman

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Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Northwest Georgia
Posts: 1621

I agree that every man needs to hunt a dog that suits him,
But this post was suppose to be about breeding extreme or crazy traits in dogs, now we understand how it happened, nobody is on the same page or willing to address the problem 😊
It’s all good, keep on rollin boys! Seems to be the mentality, if this is the case then “ it must be the dog food”
Lol 👍🏼

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Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: north ala.
Posts: 902

Still comes back to greed, pride and ego

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Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Northwest Georgia
Posts: 1621

I think what would help the younger generation is to talk about good breeding habits and why you guys practice them ?

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Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: north ala.
Posts: 902

X2

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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1911

Some of the things we see in dogs may seems extreme bred in traits...

Sometimes excessive barking is man made due to ignorance...

When ready to go hunting we leash the dogs up and lead them to the dog box and these dogs are rearing up and anxious to go hunting...

The barking can be minimized and the dogs acting up on the leash can be eliminated...using common sense...took me a while but I learned...

Same thing with bringing out the best from a hunting dog...doing the right things at the right time can be very helpful in training a pup or a dog...a pup that is bred right doesn’t need much training...he mainly needs exposure...
And a certain amount of training is there but not so obvious to the inexperienced...

I will copy and paste one of my post from another thread on here about breeding...my version on the subject...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 5106

Can't the same dog suit everyone. Or perhaps better said. Shouldn't the same type dog suit everyone. The answer is NO. Even though many think the answer is YES. So what separates the NO from the YES. I think when we understand the differencet we will see perhaps where we went wrong.

I am talking strictly coon hounds here. I think we put a lot of emphasis over the years on the results of the hunt. THE DOG TREEING. I can understand that emphasis because for the first 20 years form the mid 60's to the mid 80's. It was all about finding that tree dog. I think that is where some can say the level of overall coonhound breeding actually decreased. It was about TITLES some honest and some not honestly won and how hard or classy the dog treed. It was felt that the same classy treed dog would suit everyone. And if you ask every coonhunter most would agree they would like to have a classy honest with the coon, not mean tree dog. So the same tree dog with the meat would suit about everyone. Now where the big difference is hunting style and that is dependent of the amount of land you have to hunt on. Also on the terrain and coon population. The same type dog won't suit everyone here and never will. We all have different conditions we need our dogs to hunt and find coon in. This is also when our coon hound genetics were being stamped in stone. We failed to put the emphasis on balance/tracking and most of it was put on treeing. So NO we all don't want the same type of track/hunting hound. But YES can be said to most people needing and wanting a solid tree dog that has the coon.
Here is the thing. Treeing ability that was based on having the coon was seriously overlooked during the developmental stages of the Tree Hound. Tracking ability was overlooked and some issues came from dogs just wanting to tree to much. It was a time that hunters were afraid to correct a tree dog. Hunters had looked to long for a dog that would tree to start correcting it on the tree and perhaps mess it up. That is the biggest falsehood in the coonhound world. If more had been corrected then the ones untrainable could have been removed from the gene pool. Instead of just solidifying the tree dog genes from the ones that had no coon and couldn't be trained to have one, into the future of the breeds.

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Location: Indiana
Posts: 2620

I talked to two older guys I hunt with about this post/subject being as I'm 32 and wasn't around back then. They did a lot of comp hunts back in the late 70's/80's all the way til currently. These aren't just pleasure hunters. They both totally disagreed that the pen barking, bowl chewing, poop smearing pups are a newer thing. They said the had plenty back then and seen them today. Said they seen good ones back then and today, only change they both agreed on was more tree dog in today's hounds. Not to argue one side or the other, but i thought it was interesting what their view was as they both start several young ones every other year.

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GRNITECH' JR'S JANEY
(Xjr X Insane Jane)

GRNITECH ST. JOHN'S STYLISH REX
(Ol south stylish Rebel X Janey)

GRNITECH' AFTER DARK'S JAN-IT
(Sweat It X Janey)

DUAL GRNITE' LONETREE LEGEND (R.I.P.)
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GRNITECH' STYLISH LITTLE PEG(R.I.P.)
(Trackman X Browns Little Peg)

GRNITECH 'PR' JANEY'S GOTTA GUN
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NITECH ‘PR’ REBELS STYLISH MOJA
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Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 5106

jkidd1 one thing I thought about and perhaps has a lot to do with it. As a person gets old they want more peace in their life. Perhaps the things that bother me now, did not bother me 50 years ago. I know there is some truth to this, just don't know how much. Dogs might be the same. My patience might have changed. Thanks for the reply.

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Registered: Dec 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 2620

Bruce I hear ya, I think my patience maybe 75years old already lol.

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AFTER DARK KENNELS

JEREMY KIDD
765-520-1552


*females*
GRNITECH' JR'S JANEY
(Xjr X Insane Jane)

GRNITECH ST. JOHN'S STYLISH REX
(Ol south stylish Rebel X Janey)

GRNITECH' AFTER DARK'S JAN-IT
(Sweat It X Janey)

DUAL GRNITE' LONETREE LEGEND (R.I.P.)
(Noct. Style X Southern Sky)

GRNITECH' STYLISH LITTLE PEG(R.I.P.)
(Trackman X Browns Little Peg)

GRNITECH 'PR' JANEY'S GOTTA GUN
(Wild Card X Jr's Janey)

NITECH ‘PR’ REBELS STYLISH MOJA
(Ol Souths Stylish Rebel X Janey)

AFTER DARK’S PURDY PENNY
(Big $$ X Janit)

NITECH' SEVEN MILE SLOOPY(R.I.P.)
(Skipper x Big time Trixie)

Proud UNION JOURNEYMAN LINEMAN
https://i.postimg.cc/654pWfzm/IMG-1920.png
I.B.E.W. LOCAL 1393

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Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 3370

Bruce, there are some very nice hounds being bred today. If you're not happy with what you have, look around. They might not be tri-colored.LOL

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Donald Bergeron

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shadinc I agree with some very nice hounds being bred. The issue I have is some of the foolish baggage they have around the house. I think I mentioned in another post on this thread. I have had my better hounds the past 10-15 years. I have one at the house that was the easiest starting dog I ever owned. He is also probably my least concern around the house. Barked some but correction stopped that.

I just feel sorry for some that don't have the experience to make the corrections. Even more sorry for the prospects wasted because of that.

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Registered: Dec 2013
Location: Nichols Ny
Posts: 1565

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
Can't the same dog suit everyone. Or perhaps better said. Shouldn't the same type dog suit everyone. The answer is NO. Even though many think the answer is YES. So what separates the NO from the YES. I think when we understand the differencet we will see perhaps where we went wrong.

I am talking strictly coon hounds here. I think we put a lot of emphasis over the years on the results of the hunt. THE DOG TREEING. I can understand that emphasis because for the first 20 years form the mid 60's to the mid 80's. It was all about finding that tree dog. I think that is where some can say the level of overall coonhound breeding actually decreased. It was about TITLES some honest and some not honestly won and how hard or classy the dog treed. It was felt that the same classy treed dog would suit everyone. And if you ask every coonhunter most would agree they would like to have a classy honest with the coon, not mean tree dog. So the same tree dog with the meat would suit about everyone. Now where the big difference is hunting style and that is dependent of the amount of land you have to hunt on. Also on the terrain and coon population. The same type dog won't suit everyone here and never will. We all have different conditions we need our dogs to hunt and find coon in. This is also when our coon hound genetics were being stamped in stone. We failed to put the emphasis on balance/tracking and most of it was put on treeing. So NO we all don't want the same type of track/hunting hound. But YES can be said to most people needing and wanting a solid tree dog that has the coon.
Here is the thing. Treeing ability that was based on having the coon was seriously overlooked during the developmental stages of the Tree Hound. Tracking ability was overlooked and some issues came from dogs just wanting to tree to much. It was a time that hunters were afraid to correct a tree dog. Hunters had looked to long for a dog that would tree to start correcting it on the tree and perhaps mess it up. That is the biggest falsehood in the coonhound world. If more had been corrected then the ones untrainable could have been removed from the gene pool. Instead of just solidifying the tree dog genes from the ones that had no coon and couldn't be trained to have one, into the future of the breeds.

---

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

I started in the hunts in 79. I hunted with dogs all over the USA that had no trouble tracking and treeing coons. I don’t know exzactly but I am going to say about the late 80’s is when I started noticing the change by then I had found out about the yadkin river dogs and they are good in the pen the ones I have owned. People used to send those idiots for me to hunt that’s why I quit hunting dogs for the public.



I think they just sent them to my house because they couldn’t stand them either and hoped I could do somthing with them lol.


Tar

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Registered: Apr 2014
Location: batsville ark
Posts: 1110

instead of buying a pup based on titles and money won find a breeder who has had the same stock of hounds for several generations , my English male is cool as a cucumber around the house , 7 generations family breed wilcox on top 8 generations crystal springs ken st john on bottom , I have bought pairs of all grand pups and pairs from big money winners ,on the ukc all time history list their pedigrees were as good as you could find anywhere ,same with the big time money winners for pup earnings ,the littermates were as different as night and day from one another , one would babble and one be stone cold silent ,one laid back one a barking idiot ,just for a couple examples ,although I never owned one the house line of dogs were advertised as standing the test of time ,generations of dogs raised by one man and stud dogs picked from his own stock not replaced by going a buying a new dog to put up for stud to public ,dave dean also comes to mind from the blue tick breed ,

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Registered: Dec 2017
Location: VA
Posts: 128

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dave Richards
Maybe we need a new format type of competition hunts. Hunts that reward certain things and scratch for certain things. Rethink what we are trying to accomplish with our hunts. Make winning a real test and being a Champion mean something you are proud of. Elimination style hunts, cast winners advance and hunt off for a true winner. Lots to think about, it can be done. Dave

---

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Cedar Ridge Kennels

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

quote:

---

Originally posted by 5thgearwide
I’ve never been to a comp hunt before, majority of the dogs in my chosen lines pedigree aren’t titled but they suit me and the men before me that hunted hard, and culled harder. From the outside lookin in this seems like the most logical recommendation to me. Maybe I’m just old fashioned but why would someone want to consider their dog a winner, just because it plays the game exactly by the rules, and not necessarily trees coon? Isn’t the whole idea to prove each dogs value as a “coon dog”? I think if a set of rules was developed to be more inline with meat hunting, a lot of your breeding faults would phase out over a couple generations. I also believe that whenever money is brought into competition honesty and dignity go out the door. But that’s just the 2 cents from an outsider looking in.

---

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Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Jacksonville NC
Posts: 149

Back in the early 2000's I was pretty big into Fox Hunting and went to a legends House to buy a dog...Lewis Garner...He was getting up in age and we went out to his barn where he had his hounds. Very neat nice pens. Inside the barn the hounds were on cement and each pen had a door that led out into an outside pen. The hound I was there to look at was beautiful and had done very well in the trials. When I asked Mr. Garner why he was selling the dog he said the dog has a bad habit that he does not tolerate....I asked what was the habit and with a straight face he said "no dog is gonna live here that takes a crap on that cement" In other words he was culling that really nice hound because he crapped inside the barn and not outside in the outdoor part of the pen. I bought the dog and he did very well for me. But he was culled because he did not suit the Legend Mr. Lewis Garner by his pen behavior... This great houndsman was winning with this hound but put high standards ahead of winning on the short term...We are now crowning hounds with titles that are not really well balanced hounds. Are they good at the game we play? YES! What has changed boys is not the hounds but our standards and our culture of what we consider is a really balanced hound... We should be culling at a higher rate and giving titles at a slower rate...Circle Trees should not be the way we put a CH title on a dog. It should be the way we cull...Its basically turned into a treeing contest that happens away from the club house...you guys can have it but for me I want him to hunt, trail, check, and tree when he has the meat.

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Roy Jarman

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Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

The dogs of the past were consistent. You see dogs today that win consistently through the year always ending up in the winners circle but they are few. The dogs of the past I drew you had to have your (A) game on every single time to compete With them. These dogs of today have a really good night then the next hunt they leave trees and tree slicks and pretty much make ameture mistakes. I watch the play by plays and see this a lot but it might be different if I was there to hear what’s really going on. Like that first strike when there are no coons moving lol. I think it’s focus if they are radical and uncontrollable in the pen they probly are going to be the same way in the woods plus inconsistent.



That’s been my experience.


Tar

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