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Bolden1
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2014
Location: Pike county, ky
Posts: 867

Ok Alen/ukc

So you half to have a master of hound at a hunt or you can use a hunt director. Why don't you start a program to knock off so much everytime someone enters there dog if they have a certify approve JUDGE CARD. Have a test for them to answer ? So hopefully we can get better judges in cast. So many people think they have been cheated or taking advantage of when a lot of time they simply don't know the rules. I know one person who calls in after every cast he's in cause someone is always cheating. And most of time he just don't know the rules from ukc, just the ones he makes up. But it's happening everywhere and of course there's some people who take advantage of there judging task. But I'd like to see you guys come up with two things. One of course a pass/fail test to take so they can a license judge card. Than a format where if u have three club complaints to your club MOH by three different people at three separate hunts than you can't judge a cast for a year. I know there will be certain cast where there's not nuff license judges but look at your bigger hunts like aut oaks etc, I've seen some people put down as judges that had never been on a cast. It actually happen to my nephew he was so scared I think he fake he was sick and withdrew my dog, lol. I don't want to start a big debate just would love to see a lot of people get the correct information before they judge a cast.

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Old Post 07-01-2015 03:19 AM
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wrinkletreeknls
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Registered: Apr 2009
Location: FAIRMONT, WV
Posts: 309

Around here you have a hard enough time getting people to judge at all, let alone want to take a test for it

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Old Post 07-01-2015 03:59 AM
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MR.RATMAN
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Registered: Jul 2014
Location: IOWA
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I think it should go both ways. As you stated in post there are allot of hunters that don’t know the rules. I just think that the rule book says it all. Study and learn the rule book before entering a hunt. And make it were you have to have entered into 2 dozen hunts before being able to judge so you are comfortable and understand the game and rules. We all know there are always going to be those that bend the rules or see them different to benefit themselves, but we can improve all of this with help of all in the cast to stand up for what is correct and not what you gain out of it....

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Old Post 07-01-2015 04:42 AM
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Hoosier Man1
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Registered: Oct 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 6837

We have put so much emphasis on knowing the rules that is has scared away tons of hunters. These hunts are in decline. Look around

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Old Post 07-01-2015 04:53 AM
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Bolden1
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2014
Location: Pike county, ky
Posts: 867

Would be optional

And if local club new a better judge that didn't have it they could use either one. Just be something to use at aut oaks the zones or the big hunts. And if the small clubs had a big turn out and didn't know any of the people that were entering. I know there's not a perfect fix but they need to do something, you get people that keep bashing these hunts it's going to keep hurting the numbers. It's more of a mind thing that might help more people that are scared there going to get done wrong to start going to hunts and like I said educate a lot of people the correct way.

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Old Post 07-01-2015 12:31 PM
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MR.RATMAN
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Registered: Jul 2014
Location: IOWA
Posts: 958

Ya I just got back into it after being out 19 years. Use to see 30 or 40 dogs at a local hunt and now lucky to get 20. No wonder there are so many grnt dogs. Easy to do now if you got a decent dog not much comp like the old days. And trying to get the youth involved with rules is hard

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Old Post 07-01-2015 01:07 PM
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ssgied
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2009
Location: tn
Posts: 667

Just my opinion. If you want to see better judges, I think it should start at the club level. Clubs can hold their own training classes. Use a MOH to conduct the class, give club members a free hunt entry for attending. They could have a mandate of three classes before you could judge or maybe just one class, whatever the club thinks. I know it is hard to get some people to do any extra without some type of compensation. That is why you offer free hunt entry or what ever will motivate them. In order to have better clubs and more attendance, it has to start at home. I don't think there is any perfect fix, and I don't think that it is always UKC's place to come up with a solution to fix our problems. Most good clubs have made themselves good, and most bad clubs have made themselves bad. Again just my opinion.

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Old Post 07-01-2015 01:21 PM
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Allen / UKC
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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 9183

A Judge's Card sounds great but I'm afraid it would be one of those good ideas that doesn't work well.

Tim, as for judge selection at Oaks and our other own events, we do select the judges and put them on cards first. I realize it happens sometimes that the handler-judge is not qualified, like your nephew that you mentioned. 90% of the time that is due to the handler being changed from the information we had originally. That's an easy fix though. He should have taken it to the MOH and asked him to select a different judge.

ssgied, I like your suggestions and the way you think. We do still have clubs that take the initiative to educate their members on rules and good judging. Kudos to those that do! It goes a long way. Unfortunately, we have others that don't seem to care much about doing things like that.

I personally love discussing niter hunt scenarios and the rules that apply to them. Sometimes I'm surprised how hard it is to get a decent little crowd to participate.

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Old Post 07-01-2015 01:48 PM
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Tim MACHA
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Troy Iowa
Posts: 2159

This falls back on the MOH and club director

I feel it is the responsiblity of them to go through the entries and pick a desirable judge. Especially at the local level, they have been around enough to know who is capable or not.

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Old Post 07-01-2015 02:32 PM
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Bruce M. Conkey
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Allen, I know you guys are busy and I appreciate all that you do. If I owned UKC and after about the second time a rule question comes on the board and you have 5 different answers I would be pulling my hair out. Thing is I see them almost daily on here with a half dozen different answers. I know the one thing that makes the rules on the board difficult is the original question or happening starts to get changed as the post gets longer.

Anyway with all that said why couldn't once a week or every two weeks a one hour or two hour Webinar be held and the rules discussed from the beginning. These could be also kept and shared later or archived and made available on the board.
The biggest problems discussed first is a possibility.

Seriously if someone gave me UKC I would not take it unless I could get more people on the same page regarding rules.
Now the other side of the coin you guys actually see the results of knowing or not knowing the rules on Monday morning. Maybe it is not as bad as it appears on the board.

Last edited by on 07-01-2015 at 06:47 PM

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Old Post 07-01-2015 06:44 PM
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Allen / UKC
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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
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That must be why I'm going bald! Haha.

Like your webinar idea.

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Old Post 07-01-2015 10:23 PM
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joey
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2012
Location: McRae Ar
Posts: 3701

Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce M. Conkey
Allen, I know you guys are busy and I appreciate all that you do. If I owned UKC and after about the second time a rule question comes on the board and you have 5 different answers I would be pulling my hair out. Thing is I see them almost daily on here with a half dozen different answers. I know the one thing that makes the rules on the board difficult is the original question or happening starts to get changed as the post gets longer.

Anyway with all that said why couldn't once a week or every two weeks a one hour or two hour Webinar be held and the rules discussed from the beginning. These could be also kept and shared later or archived and made available on the board.
The biggest problems discussed first is a possibility.

Seriously if someone gave me UKC I would not take it unless I could get more people on the same page regarding rules.
Now the other side of the coin you guys actually see the results of knowing or not knowing the rules on Monday morning. Maybe it is not as bad as it appears on the board.





Bruce, most of the rules have been discussed once or twice in the adviser. I don't think it does a whole lot of good because most either don't bother reading the rules or they just don't care. One thing I have always thought was lacking is reading comprehension. I can read it to them in black and white and they still want to argue because its not how someone else did it on the last cast they were on.

Look at how they are on here. A question can be asked, Allen can give the answer and 6 pages later they are still arguing about it.

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Old Post 07-01-2015 10:38 PM
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JiM
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

When AKC first developed their new rules, they printed out a 4 or 5 page leaflet that broke down every single rule/sub rule and explained it in great detail and explained how it was to be judged. It was very plainly worded, simple to understand and extremely helpful. I think Jerry Moll wrote it.

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Old Post 07-01-2015 10:40 PM
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Dogwhisper
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Registered: Feb 2005
Location:
Posts: 1737

This message board ought ta have a "rules" only forum.....solely devoted to rule applications,interpretation etc.......... Passing an open book test don't mean squat !!!

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Old Post 07-02-2015 05:40 PM
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deschmidt27
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2008
Location: Burlington, CT
Posts: 1758

One issue with the Advisor is you have to buy it, meaning you personally have to spend money, to provide a free service to someone else. And two, if folks aren't reading the back of the scorecard, they probably won't read a book on it.

I like the idea of a webinar, or portions of the Advisor doled out in weekly doses on this forum. There are many that aren't on a computer, that neither approach will help, but many that it will. As many have said, there are plenty of people on this forum asking questions, so maybe it's a great place to provide a weekly example, much like Bruce does with Garmin insights.

But I firmly agree with the idea that it needs to be managed at the club level. They're the ones that want satisfied customers. It's their reputation on the line, when a cast gets a terrible judge, or a terrible guide. People will forget the judge or guides name, but they'll remember the club that they never want to go back to.

It is asking folks to do more, but that's because life requires effort! If you want more members you'll need to do something to attract more members. If you want more participants at your events, you'll need to do something to drive more participation. If you already have great participation at your events, you'll need to figure out how to keep it that way.

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joey
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Registered: Jun 2012
Location: McRae Ar
Posts: 3701

I like Tims idea of a test. Ukc could provide it online and give some sort of a certificate. The club could ask before draw out if anyone is certified and use them as judges first. There would still be issues but it would be making an effort to straiten out some of them.

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Old Post 07-02-2015 08:05 PM
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Tim MACHA
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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Troy Iowa
Posts: 2159

quote:
Originally posted by joey
I like Tims idea of a test. Ukc could provide it online and give some sort of a certificate. The club could ask before draw out if anyone is certified and use them as judges first. There would still be issues but it would be making an effort to straiten out some of them.

I am afraid that very few would certify. Hard enough to get a guy that I know is capable to take the card.now. I am sure he won't go to the trouble. One thing that sends chills is when someone I don't know comes up to the table and says, "I can judge."

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Last edited by Tim MACHA on 07-03-2015 at 09:26 PM

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Old Post 07-03-2015 04:36 AM
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Tim MACHA
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Troy Iowa
Posts: 2159

quote:
Originally posted by joey
I like Tims idea of a test. Ukc could provide it online and give some sort of a certificate. The club could ask before draw out if anyone is certified and use them as judges first. There would still be issues but it would be making an effort to straiten out some of them.

I am afraid that very few would certify. Hard enough to get a guy that I know is capable to take the card.now. I am sure he won't go to the trouble. One thing that sends chills is when someone I don't know comes up to the table and says, "I can judge."

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Old Post 07-03-2015 04:36 AM
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Jordan120
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Tim MACHA I think some type of certification would be great because I've been on a few casts where some guys have argued up and down with me about a rule calling and I explain it to them and show them on the back of the card of the ruling and they still say I don't know what I'm doing. I think if you have some type of certification it would be cut down on arguing and fighting and the hunts would get big again.

I've been hunting in the hunts since I was 9 years old and and have been judging since I was 12. I read the rules like no other and on casts I would pay attention on how people judge but also pay attention to my dog, and it payed off.

I have been selected to judge at autumn oaks and southeastern treeing walker days by ukc so I must have been doing something right judging casts

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Dogwhisper
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Certifying any judge ain't going to change that judges comprehension level.

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dean jamerson
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Not everyone is cut out to judge, knowing a rule and being able to apply the rule in a given situation is two different things.

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shadinc
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Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
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As long as this we don't have a judge that has final say, we're going to have these problems. If a baseball umpire had to get a panel together every time somebody questioned his call, a ball game would never end. When he makes a call, right or wrong, you live with it unless HE asks for help.

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JiM
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Registered: Sep 2010
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quote:
Originally posted by shadinc
As long as this we don't have a judge that has final say, we're going to have these problems. If a baseball umpire had to get a panel together every time somebody questioned his call, a ball game would never end. When he makes a call, right or wrong, you live with it unless HE asks for help.


Baseball umps don't have a dog in the hunt now do they? You really want a hunting judge, with a dog competing directly against your dog, to have the last word?

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shadinc
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quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Baseball umps don't have a dog in the hunt now do they? You really want a hunting judge, with a dog competing directly against your dog, to have the last word?
No I don't but, as long as four people that don't trust each other are competing and all have equal authority, it's gonna be a mess. Especially when nobody's dog babbles. Nobody's dog slick trees. Everybody's dog "don't start nothin', but he don't take no s**t off no other dog."

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JiM
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They don't have equal authority. The other three don't have any authority at all, they just have a vote.

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