Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Northwest Georgia
Posts: 1621

Breeding Topics.......

Is tree the easiest trait to breed for?
I know you can add it, but it's hard to water it down

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Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
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I don’t know the answer to your question...

But I will give my personal theories on traits in general...
First...if you go back to that YouTube video about the foxes that Bruce posted it says what I also have thought except I said it in a different way...

When we focus on one trait other traits are tied in...like the video said...when they focused on the friendly trait the coat colors started changing and if we look closer they weren’t the same color patterns...the ears started flopping as well...all these changes occurred by just focusing on changing and selecting for the friendly trait...

I used to say that it was a cluster of traits that produced dogs to hunt...let’s say deep that didn’t require much human interaction and didn’t care for it one way or another...

The other dog does not hunt as deep because he wants to please the handler and likes human contact...the both hunt but the gene clusters are tweaked a little different...

I also believe this in how the brain works...the average brain can only process so much...so maybe too much tree takes away from the tracking ability...

Also...you said that getting tree is easy but cutting it back is hard...almost sounds like treeing is dominant to tracking...well you didn’t mention tracking but many on here speak of both of those traits...I apologize if I misunderstood you...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Northwest Georgia
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Reuben, I have come to the conclusion that Treeing is dominant over tracking,I have had dogs in the past that were very good track dogs and might have actually been lacking on the tree, bred them to certain high powered tree dogs thinking i would get balance, most leaned to the side of the extreme tree dog and were no longer as accurate as there counterparts.
Somewhere the emotion? or scent? took over there desire to be accurate.
Keeping Balance is a hard task !

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Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
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It isn't that hard to breed tree or tracking into a line if you are only trying to breed in one trait without considering the other.

The hard part is breeding in either track or tree without losing some of the other. Also in order to breed in one trait, you have to have a dog with a whole lot of one of these traits to use to breed it in. In some breeds it is hard to find a dog with a whole lot of tree or a whole lot of track to use. That is why some have resorted to x breeding.

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Registered: Nov 2011
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I agree...keeping balance is hard to do...once we are there we fall one way or the other...riding the borderline of perfection is tiring in every day life...breeding dogs that way is probably not doable for long anyway...

Conrad...is it possible that dogs with too much track are wanting to catch and are so intense and focused on catching game that they prefer to run track and catch rather than sit and tree? Rather to just move on and catch one on the ground...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Registered: Jan 2004
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This is where it gets tough, i have had Lipper dogs that could flat run a track, take them away from most dogs and yet were very excitable tree dogs?
I also want to add that just because a dog won't tree, does not mean they are a true track dog
You actually have to hunt them against good track dogs to see where they fall.
I am not advertising just making a statement, but we have a male dog here that when he was young loved to run some doe's i have living in my woods, he could make them sweat and loved it. Once started on coon he just quit them and has caught several coon in the woods, not uncommon to find a coon up something he did not want to climb,lol he's not perfect but hard to beat to the tree. He also winds consistently when on leash going in woods to turn loose.
When he was young i had him on a 20 ft cable and would watch him stand on his back legs to smell scents in the air, you could tell they were coming by him at different levels.

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Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

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Registered: Apr 2015
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Breeding is definitely not an exact thing, all you can do is breed for what you desire and hope for the best. Sometimes you hit a home run and sometimes you strike out. The best hitters strike out way more than they hit home runs, the best breeders do the same, but when you hit that home run it sure feels good. The other issue is getting the pups in the right hands, heredity deals the cards, but environment plays the hand. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

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Dave I agree 100%
But I will say this the more you breed your line and come to see faults and the good,you are way ahead on your breeding decisions 😊
I always look at it like this, some people build houses, and some people build real nice houses.
Good cattlemen and great cattlemen.
So on and so on. We have to strive for the right outcome.
Getting them in the right hands is definitely one of the toughest things about it 👍🏼

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Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

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Although the source is in my dogs several times the further I got from direct decendents of the source it seemed to loose the traits I liked.



Tar

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I agree with you Conrad, the results of a close line know what the faults and pluses are is the way to go. Tar, you nailed it, the further away you get the weaker the blood. Keeping a good line as close as you can will produce the best results. While I am not a breeder by choice, I understand genetics. It seems to me the best results often come in the grand pups of the best dogs. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

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Registered: Feb 2012
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Just because there a hard tree dog doesn't mean you have to lose accuracy. It's the same as a dog that doesn't like to tree isn't necessarily a good track dog at all.

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Registered: Jan 2004
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Pam,exactly I was wore out from all the typing or I would have said that lol 😊

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Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

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Registered: Aug 2003
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No matter how many times the source is in your dogs you still have to breed for the dogs in his line that show the same traits. You can bet the the dog that you're breeding on had littermates that didn't have the same traits and all the pups he threw didn't show the same traits. It's a longer and harder process than just looking at a set of papers.

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quote:

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Originally posted by yadkinriver
......It's a longer and harder process than just looking at a set of papers.

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Yeah, what he said, exactly.

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quote:

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Originally posted by yadkintar
Although the source is in my dogs several times the further I got from direct decendents of the source it seemed to loose the traits I liked.



Tar

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Registered: Aug 2004
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It isn't that hard. Don't get away from the source. Pick the dogs directly out of your source or from your source's brothers/sisters that have the traits you want until you can reproduce those traits consistently and then start outcrossing. If there aren't enough dogs in your source's family that have what you are looking for then you need to pick another source. Just because a dog has the traits that you want doesn't mean that it is suitable for breeding.

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Over the years I bred dogs of the same breed but only looked at the dogs being bred...

Then when I started hog hunting around 1980 I saw many culls being hunted and I sure didn’t like what I was hunting...tried a redbone and he was jam up and gritty...he was always growling at other dogs and a little too cold nosed for me but he did produce pork...didn’t hunt him long...I got to thinking the Mt cur could be the right dog...and when I started looking people always had exactly what I wanted and then they turned into a culls once I raised and hunted them...went all over the country it seemed Looking for the best bloodline... and right by me was an old man that new some old guys in the San Antonio Tx area...

Mr AC Zoeller had some really nice Mt curs that were from coon, hog, and bear strains...He went on a long trip and bought his dogs, usually winners at big hunts...the best money could buy...I bought 5 or 6 about 7 months old from him...all running loose and somewhat wild...I asked him which was the best and he points out a black with brown brindle trim...turned out he wasn’t exaggerating...he was good enough to earn a name...Smoke was his name...Mr Zoeller had heart trouble and was in and out of the Hospital...so he let me have them all with papers for 50 dollars a piece and wanted to throw in another for free... with his illness he just couldn’t hunt nor socialize them...

I asked him if he had any Texas Smoke blood in his Mt curs and he said not much but a man further Southwest had dogs that were mostly Texas Smoke bred...so I went over there to Atascosita,Tx and asked the man when he had pups to call please call me...Mr. HB White was in his 80’s and a retired Soldier...turned out he was a Texas Smoke fan...not many people had pure Texas Smoke blood but he had an old female that was sired by Texas Smoke and a Texas Smoke daughter and all other dogs he had were also bred that way...I bought a pup out of her and asked to buy her and she wasn’t for sale...but I tell him I am interested if he no longer needs her...he called me a year later and I buy her...Her son turned out to be a very good hog dog and she gave me one litter...she was up in age...

I also bought a kemmer mt cur gyp out of a pretty well known dog...Kemmers gold nugget and his son Trouble...she had both several times in her pedigree...that side of the kemmers are known for colder nose and winding ability...

I said all this to say I picked from these and culled and tested hard for over twenty years...just these dogs and as I said...I will get back on here and continue writing as to what I learned and of course developed theories in an attempt to answer my own questions...

I had created a plan and goal to breed my own line on account it was very hard to find a dog that pleased me and I felt I was ready to start the program...it was expensive yet lots of fun and hard work...but I wanted to prove to myself it was doable and I wanted to see the outcome...I now had the dogs I needed to start...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
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Some very interesting and true things said here. Thanks Conrad for starting this interesting post.

Yadkinriver hit on a key point when he said. "No matter how many times the source is in your dogs you still have to breed for the dogs in his line that show the same traits. You can bet the the dog that you're breeding on had littermates that didn't have the same traits and all the pups he threw didn't show the same traits. It's a longer and harder process than just looking at a set of papers" That is exactly what they did with those Fox. Where this starts to fall apart for the coonhound breeder. Is letting the titles dictate the breeding pair, instead of the traits you're looking for. I also think the quality of the titles have diminished over the years. Which is another good reason not look one at the dogs title. But stay focused on the traits that produced that title. Nothing wrong with a dogs title getting your attention. But a narrow minded focus on titles will hurt more that help a breeding program. Titles elevate the price you can get for a pup. Traits only satisfy the breeder who understands them and sees accomplishment in maintaining them. In to many cases the environment of the new home never lets those traits reach their full potential. Just like that fox that was bred to be tame. It goes to a new home, never handled, never properly cared for.

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This last cross I just made I went for traits only. A dog out of bone and a direct daughter of rank on my stuff. Both bone and rank produced tighter mouth track drifting dogs. I don’t like a dog if it’s not moving that track to be giving all that mouth. And you find out those other dogs in the cast don’t look as good if your dog don’t tell them were it’s going. I made this cross to suit me.


Tar

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Registered: Aug 2003
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Tar looks like you're shooting at a direct outcross. Kinda like trying to fill an inside straight. Can and has been done before. You've been around the block enough to know what traits you're looking for so I'm rooting for ya and wishing you all the luck in the world. Now all you have to do is pick the right pup. lol

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Registered: Aug 2004
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Oh my goodness, you mean that if I spend years developing a line and making the right crosses, I might pick the only sorry pup in the litter? Or I might screw the pup up because I don't know how to properly train it? Or, God forbid, I pick the right pup; train it properly and then it gets Erlichia or run over by a car? Why in the world does anyone even try? I am beginning to understand why so many just quit.

Last edited by Richard Lambert on 06-25-2020 at 01:26 PM

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quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Oh my goodness, you mean that if I spend years developing a line and making the right crosses, I might pick the only sorry pup in the litter? Or I might screw the pup up because I don't know how to properly train it? Or, God forbid, I pick the right pup; train it properly and then it gets Erlichia or run over by a car? Why in the world does anyone even try? I am beginning to understand why so many just quit.

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Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Northwest Georgia
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I don't think that Yadkinriver was talking about spending years on a line, but an outcross. All you can do is hope they line up and pick the right pup.
Someone will say, that is all we can do? i say you can weed it down closer than that, but it does take more time and energy.
For years i worked on one side of the pedigree, liked allot, some were strange to me? But now i am on both sides of that pedigree and things are more stable and familiar to the traits i want.

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Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

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Registered: Aug 2003
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Conrad I'm glad someone understands. Richard understands too he just likes to entertain himself by asking questions. I just wish he'd share the answers with us.

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Btw Richard was what I was trying to say on a direct outcross unless it is an unusual lucky nick you just have to be lucky to pick the right pup. Now ya know what I mean Vern?

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