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ClayBottom11
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2014
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 117

Automatic ďStrikeĒ Dogs

Iíve been seeing more and more of these ďautomaticĒ (babbling) dogs being promoted. When you watch a play by play or live coverage, itís pretty obvious to most what is taking place there. I havenít hunted all over the country like some but when the dog is struck off the lead and treed 1.5 miles in there, a spade is a spade and the dog was babblingÖ granted, some exceptional situations now and then.

To the point, When did this trend go from being corrected to now being encouraged? I fully understand the advantage on the scorecard, and many of these dogs Iím speaking of do a lot of winning. Seems to me like this has gone from being a fault in a dog to now being something to brag about..

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Old Post 01-14-2023 04:15 PM
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Donnie Stevens
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Registered: Jul 2004
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 2747

Re: Automatic ďStrikeĒ Dogs

quote:
Originally posted by ClayBottom11

To the point, When did this trend go from being corrected to now being encouraged?



As soon as the rules allowed them to bark for a minute every time they were released instead of only first three mins of the hunt. Was never a problem before that.

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Old Post 01-14-2023 04:29 PM
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Dogwhisper
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Registered: Feb 2005
Location:
Posts: 1723

Why blame the rules......weak judging is y this xist and tolerated.
The rules r just fine

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Old Post 01-14-2023 08:14 PM
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Cory Highfill
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2004
Location: Clarksville, AR
Posts: 1070

Itís a fault that provides an advantage within the scoring structure currently in place.

Competition hunts arenít designed exclusively to reward the dog that trees the most coons in a certain amount of time. The rules are designed to reward dogs that tree coons a certain way (striking quick, treeing quick, staying out and being accurate). And as long as dogs are rewarded for barking instead of striking, there will be folks that breed and promote dogs with that fault.

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Old Post 01-14-2023 08:25 PM
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ClayBottom11
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2014
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 117

I agree that weak judging is a big part of the issue. Whether judges donít want the confrontation of giving a minus, or, if sometimes itís hard to prove.. I think thatís a big part of it.

Same with the scoring structure.. thereís no doubt that the quicker you get it done, the better off youíre going to be..

Personally, Iíd like to see more accountability for a strike on the babble and that starts with the judge. Getting treed when nothing is there has itís penalty and so does striking when nothing is there.

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Old Post 01-14-2023 09:54 PM
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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22269

Hunting a dog that babbles should be against the rules. That is the only way to stop it. Hunting a dog that babbles is "gaining an unfair advantage". Handlers are either taking advantage of the rules or outright cheating depending on how you view it.
If you really want to stop it, scratch a dog for babbling. If they are scratched for babbling 3 times, bar them from entering a hunt for a year.
Or if you are really serious about it bar the handler if he/she enters a babbling dog in a hunt. After all the handler is attempting to cheat.

Now there is the solution. How serious are y'all?

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Old Post 01-14-2023 10:12 PM
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Dogwhisper
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2005
Location:
Posts: 1723

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Hunting a dog that babbles should be against the rules. That is the only way to stop it. Hunting a dog that babbles is "gaining an unfair advantage". Handlers are either taking advantage of the rules or outright cheating depending on how you view it.
If you really want to stop it, scratch a dog for babbling. If they are scratched for babbling 3 times, bar them from entering a hunt for a year.
Or if you are really serious about it bar the handler if he/she enters a babbling dog in a hunt. After all the handler is attempting to cheat.

Now there is the solution. How serious are y'all?



I'll go I step further .....bar not only the handlers but the judge that let's these handlers do it..... y are these judges judging.....the rest of the cast/handlers are saying nothing....(their just as much to blame) .......out of fear I suppose ....any call can be ?'ed......say something or u deserve what u get ......

Last edited by Dogwhisper on 01-16-2023 at 08:41 AM

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Old Post 01-14-2023 10:31 PM
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ClayBottom11
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2014
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 117

Problem I see here - if itís too hard to enforce/prove to minus.. I donít think itíd ever go as far as being a barring infraction.. lol.

Even if judges would start minusing only the most obvious situations, it would be a good start.

On the local level.. when youíre drawing casts and start asking for a judge, half the casts stare at the floor waiting for somebody else to take the card. Thereís no abundance of willing, experienced judges from what Iíve seen. That being said, the one who does take the card in that situation certainly isnít going to ruffle anybodyís feathers with a call like that.

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Old Post 01-14-2023 10:42 PM
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treedog2345
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Registered: Jul 2016
Location:
Posts: 456

I know what I'm bout to say will get all tore apart but the real problem is money anywhere there is money there is a way to take it from people . Striking a babble mouthed dog is no diffrent than putting weights in fish. Money makes folks do alot of things. People used to take pride in an honest strike dog that knew how to get its mouth open and move a track . The win at all cost hints have made it the way it is . The fact of competing honeslty in a cast of good hounds and Handlers and winning a cast where there were more than 3 casts at the club used to mean something.i have had folks say if trophy were all they gained they would quit all together. I know they are dust collectors but the part of competing and winning and gunting a all around honest dog ,I'll just keep the trophies and wipe the dust . No money is worth cheating a stranger or friend. Of my dog can't honestly beat yours IL shake your hand and try to beat you next time .

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Old Post 01-14-2023 11:52 PM
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Tim Green
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Burkburnett, TX
Posts: 495

Change the strike to where it isnít an advantage which would solve all this immediatelyÖ..but itíll never happen and big money is the reason. Over aggressive judges are just as bad as weak judges too. Iíve encountered judges that are looking for opportunities to minus a dog for this from the beginning to give them or their buddy an advantage. Just take the strike out of it or make it the same.

Make all strike points 25Öyou must strike before treeing in case a dog quits and comes in.

How many casts have you been on that when you cut, the dogs go different directions and tree separate coons, but one dog gets 100 strike while the other gets less. In my opinion, the dog should move up in strike points too because it is obviously a different track.

Either way, make it 25 across the board and count coons and who trees them the fastest. Then the dogs can bark all they want to, but no denying who finishes the track first.

Just my opinion.

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Old Post 01-15-2023 03:53 AM
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ClayBottom11
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2014
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 117

quote:
Originally posted by Tim Green


Make all strike points 25Öyou must strike before treeing in case a dog quits and comes in.




I think this could be one of the easier ways to at least improve this issue.

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Old Post 01-15-2023 04:51 AM
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Donnie Stevens
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2004
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 2747

quote:
Originally posted by Dogwhisper
Why blame the rules......weak judging is y this xist and tolerated.
The rules r just fine



Would you say it's easier to determine if a dog is babbling when it's 400 yards away or when it just left the lead strap and barked three times with four lights on it ?

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Old Post 01-15-2023 05:39 AM
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Ed Hillenbrand
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2019
Location: Ohio
Posts: 44

Automatic strike dogs

I was on a 4 dog cast last month and after we cut them loose, we stood in silence for a few minutes. What a great experience! Those with auto strike dogs know what they have and like it. It is a very easy thing to fix. Some do NOT want to fix it. A good "me too"auto strike dog is a hard thing to beat under the current rules. It is impossible to prove, so just try to beat them fair and square. Nothing beats the handshakes and complements after an honest cast win.

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Old Post 01-15-2023 01:54 PM
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randywoodard2
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2018
Location: Lafayette Georgia
Posts: 179

U know it is not a dog barking 3 or 4 times they"re talking about

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Old Post 01-15-2023 02:58 PM
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James B Grice
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2006
Location: Latta, SC
Posts: 990

Do what Tim Green said , Also if a dog Comes walking up or Quits a track Minus it for 100.... I been saying for years GIVE THAT SPLIT DOG HIS STRIKE POINTS TOO ... If nothing else is done at the minimum STRIKE THEM ALL THE SAME....EVERYON KNOWS WHAT THEYRE HUNTING These podcast show it too sad thing is some of todays coon hunters dont know the difference in an honest strike dog or babbling dog....No one wants to start controversary But like some said Most Handlers know what they handling striking a babbling dog is nothing less than stealing from your co workers, hunting Buddies or your neighbor If I had anything worth hauling to A big hunt I probably be deemed A TROUBLE MAKER and Barred cause I call you out on em... Every drop, IS WHAT IT IS

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Old Post 01-15-2023 07:19 PM
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Josh Michaelis
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Registered: Jan 2004
Location: North MO
Posts: 2323

If a dog barks the entire time it is loose it is impossible to minus under the current rule set in nearly every organization.

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Old Post 01-15-2023 08:23 PM
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pamjohnson
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 2064

Worry about your own dog. If you can't win ask yourself why? Again then Worry about your own dog. Maybe the rules need changed. Until then quit breaking them to babble or better yet teach them to babble either way u guessed it Worry about your own dog.

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Old Post 01-15-2023 08:29 PM
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Kler Kry
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2009
Location: Monticello, Wi
Posts: 726

Babbling or Outstanding Trackdog

I hate a babbler and I love an Outstanding Track dog and the majority of the Judges and hunters can't tell the difference. When I was competition hunting Penney I would all most always take second strike when Penney should have had first strike. Especially in the other registry. It is easier to over come loosing 25 points on strike than it is over coming -100 when a hunting judge gives minus points to the best dog in the cast so they can win, because that is the only way that they can win.

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Old Post 01-15-2023 10:07 PM
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ClayBottom11
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2014
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 117

quote:
Originally posted by Josh Michaelis
If a dog barks the entire time it is loose it is impossible to minus under the current rule set in nearly every organization.


If a dog barks the entire time itís loose, I donít want it. I guess thatís where the root catalyst for the post lies. I donít think that is a ďbetterĒ dog than one thatís honest on its strike. Taking the competition out of it, which dog would you rather hunt? I certainly donít want the one babbling from chain to tree every drop.

That being said, the hunts are another animal. Is it an advantage? Absolutely. I guess my opinion is that the (just me talking) cheap advantage should be neutralized.

We always ask ďare we breeding for better dogs today?Ē

If youíre breeding/training dogs to babble my answer would be no.

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Old Post 01-15-2023 11:31 PM
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honalieh
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 2140

Babbling

quote:
Originally posted by ClayBottom11
Problem I see here - if itís too hard to enforce/prove to minus.. I donít think itíd ever go as far as being a barring infraction.. lol.

Even if judges would start minusing only the most obvious situations, it would be a good start.

On the local level.. when youíre drawing casts and start asking for a judge, half the casts stare at the floor waiting for somebody else to take the card. Thereís no abundance of willing, experienced judges from what Iíve seen. That being said, the one who does take the card in that situation certainly isnít going to ruffle anybodyís feathers with a call like that.



I remember years ago, the Hammer dogs would babble a lot.
-----This was resolved by jumping 1st tree to 125 points. It worked.
If a dog can get 1st strike and 1st tree, more power to them!!!

Problem = With silent dogs in hunts, a dog that opens on track can be considered a babbler by comparison.

I do understand the issue.

Dog A (Babbler) = First Strike = 100, 4th Tree = 25.
Dogs B, C, and D get struck and treed before Dog A trees. But, Dog A does get treed deep and alone, and when we get there he has a kit coon on a bush. So, we plus his strike, and, we give him an extra 100 tree points (up to 125) for being treed by himself.

So, what is the bigger problem:
(1) The extra 25 strike points he got over the 2nd strike dog, or
(2) The extra 100 tree points he got for being treed alone.

Put another way (as called):
Dog A ---100 Strike ----- 25 Tree (treed 4th) --- Total = 125 (4th)
Dog B --- 75 Strike ----- 50 Tree (treed 3rd) --- Total = 125 (3rd)
Dog C --- 50 Strike ----- 75 Tree (treed 2nd) -- Total = 125 (2nd)

Dog D --- 25 Strike ---- 125 Tree (treed 1st) --- Total = 150 (1st)

So, it's really all of the bonus tree points we give dogs for being treed alone that creates the issue, and penalizes the "real" 1st tree dog!!! Only one dog actually trees 1st.

Shouldn't the first dog to get treed with the meat get more tree points than the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th dogs to get treed with the meat???

How many times do you go hunting and your old dog gets treed. On the way in, your pup falls split treed? Does that mean they did an equal job??? Of Course Not!!! WE ALL KNOW BETTER!!! So, why do we have rules that say they did??? We can still be excited about the pup splitting, and hope that someday soon, they can be the dog that trees 1st.

Last edited by honalieh on 01-16-2023 at 02:52 AM

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Old Post 01-16-2023 02:49 AM
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pamjohnson
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 2064

Honalieh
Great post. It would sure turn things upside down to quit giving them split but last tree dogs them extra points. It would rub some the wrong way just reading such a thing.
It would bring a little unity back to coon hunting. As it is hunting alone and having a dog that is always alone is important to win.although I don't feel it has done our sport of coon hunting any favors in the growth of the sport.

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Old Post 01-17-2023 02:22 PM
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Josh Michaelis
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Registered: Jan 2004
Location: North MO
Posts: 2323

quote:
Originally posted by ClayBottom11
If a dog barks the entire time itís loose, I donít want it. .


Nobody is forcing you too. There are a few out there, but all you have to do to beat one like that is tree one more coon than it does.

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Old Post 01-17-2023 04:16 PM
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ClayBottom11
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2014
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 117

quote:
Originally posted by Josh Michaelis
Nobody is forcing you too. There are a few out there, but all you have to do to beat one like that is tree one more coon than it does.


Thatís true, but the conversation really isnít about which dog I want to feed. Iím curious where the mindset changed. Is the babbling trait something you think should be bred for? Does that make for a better real life coondog or does it only suit because its ďimpossibleĒ to minus in a nite hunt?

What Iím getting at here is ; the rules should be formatted to most often reward the best coondog. I know the babbling issue has been discussed over and over but it remains something that I think gets abused. Maybe itís just a loophole that will always be there.

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Old Post 01-17-2023 05:47 PM
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GES
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Missouri
Posts: 335

Re: Automatic ďStrikeĒ Dogs

"I fully understand the advantage on the scorecard, and many of these dogs Iím speaking of do a lot of winning. "

I think you answered your own question..........winning isn't about who has the best dog, Winning=Money. Winning gets you pup sales and stud fees. Winning gets you on podcast and picture on magazine covers. So,,,,the folks that want to win do whatever is necessary to win. Silent dogs, babbling dogs, mean dogs, junk runners that fall treed, slick treeing, me-to dogs, and straight line hunters are all out there being promoted by somebody that just wants to win.

You'll never put integrity and honor in the hunts by changing how you score a dog.

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ov_blues
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2007
Location: Pomeroy, Ohio
Posts: 2815

In my opinion, AKC had the answer to the babbling rules but none of the other kennel companies wanted to copy them.

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