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I hunt with a really good friend of mine for many years we have hunted together and have a lot of fun doing it, we always find somethin to bicker back and forth about. Last night we were talking about grnite ch dogs which we've had a few of and own one right now grnite ch po stoneycreek knight ranger but back on topic. He believes that just because a dog is a GR nite or nite ch he doesnt have to be a good dog just has to be a good handler and just because a pup has a great looking pedigree doesnt mean he is from good dogs or has the blood to produce a good dog but I disagree with him. Dont get me wrong I know it's about what you put into a dog hunting him and etc. but me personally I would want a pup to have champion bloodline because it shows to me that those dogs in his ped have to be able to tree a coon and look good doing or they wouldn't be champions in the first place. What does everyone else think?

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Ridgerunner1988

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Most champion dogs are decent coon dogs, but like anything else you are going to have some that are junk or just paper champions. Some that are just good bucket dogs and some that are pretty darn good coon dogs anywhere they are hunted. I have seen some that I really liked and I have seen some I would not have as a gift. Small club hunts with few dogs hunting off buckets produce Champion dogs that may or may not be worth a dime. There are lots of pups off of All Grand pedigrees that do not make anything near a coon dog. Likewise there are lots of pups from x breed or Registered dogs without titles that make good coon dogs. If it was as easy as breeding Champion dogs to Champion dogs and getting coon dogs, WE would have plenty of coon dogs, the truth is we only have a few that are true coon dogs, even though some folks claim to have several. Big difference in a coon dog and a dog that trees coons. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dave Richards
Most champion dogs are decent coon dogs, but like anything else you are going to have some that are junk or just paper champions. Some that are just good bucket dogs and some that are pretty darn good coon dogs anywhere they are hunted. I have seen some that I really liked and I have seen some I would not have as a gift. Small club hunts with few dogs hunting off buckets produce Champion dogs that may or may not be worth a dime. There are lots of pups off of All Grand pedigrees that do not make anything near a coon dog. Likewise there are lots of pups from x breed or Registered dogs without titles that make good coon dogs. If it was as easy as breeding Champion dogs to Champion dogs and getting coon dogs, WE would have plenty of coon dogs, the truth is we only have a few that are true coon dogs, even though some folks claim to have several. Big difference in a coon dog and a dog that trees coons. Dave

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Ridgerunner1988

Last edited by Ridgerunner1988 on 05-25-2020 at 03:54 AM

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A dog that will go hunting and stay treed can be made a night ch. if it is hauled also a dog that is common but can tree a coon can be gr nt. ch. if hauled .I don't care about most titles or how much money a dog has won .The hunter in the end of it's leash tells me alot the good ones seem to be scarce . How good is your grand night champion is he a top hound that can tree coons up or down is he capable of scoring 600 in 1 hour hunt im talking about the right kind .Titles mean you hauled the dog not a while lot more IMO

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Originally posted by wart
A dog that will go hunting and stay treed can be made a night ch. if it is hauled also a dog that is common but can tree a coon can be gr nt. ch. if hauled .I don't care about most titles or how much money a dog has won .The hunter in the end of it's leash tells me alot the good ones seem to be scarce . How good is your grand night champion is he a top hound that can tree coons up or down is he capable of scoring 600 in 1 hour hunt im talking about the right kind .Titles mean you hauled the dog not a while lot more IMO

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Ridgerunner1988

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I’ve seen GrNtCh I honestly don’t think could tree a coon by themselves.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ashley Pratt
I’ve seen GrNtCh I honestly don’t think could tree a coon by themselves.

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I suspect that what you have seen is pretty much what is seen all over the country. We have bunches of small clubs hunting few dogs and hunting off buckets that are making a lot of titled dogs that are subpar as coon dogs. You see the same guys hunting the same Clubs over and over titling dogs you know are not up to par as a coon dog. I strongly think it means more to a breeder or someone selling pups to have titled dogs. Think about all of the ALL GRAND hype these past years and ask yourself the question " where are all of these super pups from these All Grand pedigrees?" I have owned some pretty good coon dogs with Titles and some that were not worth a dime. I have seen PR dogs make Grand Night Champions look like crap. Titles mean nothing it's what the dog is that counts. I coon hunt and really do not care if it's a poodle if it's a coon dog. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

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Oh I know there's a lot of dogs that have titles that shouldn't. That's why I have mentioned in the past that it should be a requirement for a dog to compete at different locations and for them to have to have a win with more dogs. Say at a bigger hunt like AO, Winter Classic, or such. The titles don't mean much any more and haven't for a long long time. The local hunts of 30+ dogs at every event are gone. I can go on, and on about what I think dogs should have to do for titles.

But the reason I put zero merits for any pup that comes from an all grand pedigree is because the titles don't mean anything. Titles don't tree coons.

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I have followed your posts for a long time and it pleases me that a young coon hunter like yourself really knows what a coon dog is. You are not content with a average dog, you are always wanting better, you are not swayed by others who do not know what a real coon dog is. You are my kind of coon hunter, you want the very best coon dog you can get, be it a x breed or whatever. You are more concerned with the dogs ability than anything else, as it should be. I wish you all the success in the future, may you own several real coon dogs in your hunting career, although they are not very common, they can be found by someone like you that know what they are looking for. Dave

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dave Richards
I have followed your posts for a long time and it pleases me that a young coon hunter like yourself really knows what a coon dog is. You are not content with a average dog, you are always wanting better, you are not swayed by others who do not know what a real coon dog is. You are my kind of coon hunter, you want the very best coon dog you can get, be it a x breed or whatever. You are more concerned with the dogs ability than anything else, as it should be. I wish you all the success in the future, may you own several real coon dogs in your hunting career, although they are not very common, they can be found by someone like you that know what they are looking for. Dave

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Lucky is when opportunity comes along and you are ready. I too was lucky to acquire a real coon dog at a young age ( twenties) and it spoiled me. I was another 20 years getting my 2nd real coon dog and another 20 years getting my 3rd real coon dog. Had some decent ones between these dogs, but not the real deal coon dogs. Knowing what a real coon dog is most folks problem, they have never seen or owned one. I wish you lived closer to me, it would be a real pleasure to hunt with you. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

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Definitely, and I most certainly agree.

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I agree with your friend. I have seen some unworthy hounds make champion. You take summer for instance. You will have guys that bring dogs you won’t see all winter to hunt and you get in woods and see why. I was in a cast years ago and withdrew because guy need to win to make dog a champion so they made a buddy system. Paperwork for hounds is crap. Dogs don’t read. You can have 2 of the best hounds breed and only 50% of those hounds may make Coon hounds. The other 50 is lost cause and it’s mostly because of handling as pup. Papers are good to make sure your not breeding to close blood.

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I knew of one that had 4 wins toward grand and had never been off the chain. I have seen more then one titled dog that could not tree a coon in the winter. Seen more then one that if it was turned loose alone would mill around and not go hunting. The title of coon dog is harder to make then nt.ch. I had one that was a nt.ch. that didn't earn the title of coon dog til that winter. Don't put a lot of stock in all grand ped. jmo.

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I agree COONDOG. We use the team coon dog loosely. This is a title that needs to be earned.

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But what I'm tryin to say is if I was going out to buy a puppy and knew nothing about neither sire or dam I'd want to buy the pup with the better ped because I'd feel more secure. That's what my question was about which pup would you feel more secure buying. And I know a title doesn't make a coondog but in all my 15 yrs of hunting I've never seen a grnite ch that couldn't tree a coon on it's own. But I dont go all over the us hunting either.

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I respect your Opinion Ridge Runner but in my 30 years of hunting I have seen a bunch that cant get it done to my standards as a coon dog so consider yourself lucky.

I don't put much into papers. I did years ago because it told a story about a hound. But the years of no DNA test and folks mixing blood that should not have breeding dogs have got hounds messed up. Don't get me wrong but in the early to mid 90's you didn't have as many slickers or none tracking hounds as you do today. There is good hounds still out there so don't think im not saying that, but sure did like some old Sackets, Lippers, Nailors, Silver Dollar and Thunders Wild Clyde hounds. You could find some old blood you need to grab it and start your own breeding to keep you some coon dogs going.

Take two good mouth accurate dogs together and breed them and you don't need papers. Find you the best unregistered dog in town and go hunt and tell me papers or titles matter. Hounds change yearly or even monthly.

This is one of those conversations that can get 1 million opinions on though. Great thread good topic to make conversation.

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There is a man right down the road from me who will just breed any dog to any gyp long as they're good lookin hounds and the same breed he doesnt care and 90% of the pups turn out to be culls. It's very hard to find a good bloodline anymore. It's like not many people want to put much into their breeding program anymore they think because they got a dog with nailor or sackets jr in there ped one time even if the dog is a cull they think because its bloodline it will still produce good pups. We need more people out there putting more pride in their breeding program. But they're is some people out there who do put a lot into there breeding program and I respect them for doing that they're doing what they can to keep good dogs out there. And if I hunted all over the US I'd say I probably would see some champion dogs that aren't worth nothing except for culling.

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Well Said! Even the best hounds don't always produce. 50% of all litters will not make it as coon dog.

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Based on your last post above , most folks would agree . Lots of folks are only interested in selling pups period. Pups from titled dogs do sell better, but you are only going to get the genetics not the title. Dave

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I agree with you RidgeRunner. While titles aren't the end all be all and we know they can be faked it's a marker I use for choosing an unstarted pup. If buying a started or finished hound the papers are much less important to me.

I base my decisions on bloodlines I know and have an idea of what type of hound I should get. So I often know what I'm looking for but may not know all the dogs in the pedigree and this is where the titles help make a decision.

For example, my nearly 3 year old Male is out of a Grand Nite male and a Nite Champion female. Now both had only produced a couple of litters and how they would reproduce was more or less unknown.

However, I knew all his grand-parents and what they were likely to produce so I took a gamble and it paid off. He's been a complete natural and treed a double on his first solo hunt. All I've had to do is put him in the woods and he figures it out, very little training on my part. He never even saw a caged coon until this past weekend at a water race.

So in conclusion, I don't think titles will make or break a dog but it does help when choosing a new unstarted pup.

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First off if I know nothing bout the parents I don't care what the titles are, Im not interested. I have bred a few in the 40 years or so and it don't matter what the titles are I have no problem getting rid of pups, because the people that know me know that I only make a cross that I want to hunt. I have a standing wait list of 6 pups and they don't care what out of. They know what kind of hound they are getting when it comes from here. Hunting with parents don't mean as much as hunting with pups. You are not getting the parents you are getting what they throw and that may be way diff then the parents. Good measure I used to use is to hunt with 3 pups out of diff females and bloodlines but the same stud. All the things that are common are prob dominate traits thrown by that stud. It has worked for me for a long time. Of course someone will wonder why I don't have all the dogs on the breeders list, but like I said I breed when I want a replacement not to flood the market.

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If all breeders were like you, we would have more coon dogs and way less culls. We have way too many breeders just breeding dogs to sell pups. I give credit to thed dedicated breeders wanting to better the breed, but they are few and far between. How many breeders actually breed for their own use, as opposed to the number that breed just to sell pups. Dave

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Originally posted by Dave Richards
If all breeders were like you, we would have more coon dogs and way less culls. We have way too many breeders just breeding dogs to sell pups. I give credit to thed dedicated breeders wanting to better the breed, but they are few and far between. How many breeders actually breed for their own use, as opposed to the number that breed just to sell pups. Dave

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