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So we are looking for a dog that can jump, run and workout a check. A dog that is clean with proper use of mouth and no trash issues. My question is why is a Jump/strike tied to the run? This past winter we had an ice storm the day before a hunt. Barometric pressure was high and no dog could smell/run a rabbit. They may have worked out checks and kept it going while hunting, but not with a 3 minute clock. We had a little dog in the cast that was a hard hunter. (One of the things we’re looking for) He jumped two rabbits and we (the Handlers) saw both rabbits as they bolted from cover. The dogs tried to run the first but timed out and all dogs were minus 50. The 2nd rabbit none of the dogs could smell or even opened and the jump dog was minus 100. (Yes he opened and was struck in) We all saw the rabbit. It was a rabbit not anything else. You could have shot both of them if hunting if you’re a jump shooter. Instead, that dog went to the clubhouse minus 150. He was the only dog that accomplished anything and I would buy him any day of the week. And yes all the dogs in that cast can run a rabbit. It was just one of those days: no dog was able to run on ice.
If we’re looking for a dog that can jump a rabbit, why do we have to score speed and drive to get credit, if the majority of the cast saw that it was a rabbit? Are we really only interested in the fast dog and don’t really care about hunt/jump? I’m not suggesting we score strike points on every jump that the dogs loose, but if the majority of the cast saw and confirmed that it was a rabbit why is the jump dog not getting the points he worked so hard to get. Should I be looking for a dog that will score three 1st lines and not worry about jumping ability? Good jump dogs are getting hard to find, everyone breeds for speed.

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Nick

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Nick, give UKC PP or NKC LP a try. I went to a HB hunt and felt these other formats were better suited to my style of dogs. Scoring more consistent in these other formats in my opinion. Dog that jumped rabbit in your cast even though it couldn't be circled would have been scored and may have won the cast in above mentioned formats.

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LOL... I think we was in that cast.

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Always has to be the "format" is built to your dog.

The UKC HH "format" promotes the 100 yards and a cloud of dust dog with an average nose....TRUE? Fastest dog across the "line" gets the biggest chunk of points. What about when old buster overruns the end 40 yards and the dog behind it cuts his guts out again and again and again....LOL.

A dog with tracking skills that can run the rabbit regardless what the rest of the idiots around it does needs a different "format"...come on...really?? A dog with a nose to run on ice, snow, whatever has to be "format" specific....really??

This is why the same old guys keep posting the same two dogs winning there club hunts...and oh they have one cast of champs with 3 dogs...and wait...a cast of grands with 2 dogs.

Thinking outside the box WOULD bring out the new folks.. BUT .The same old rules keep the same old average nose dogs...with average tracking skills...pretty decent hunt(I will give them that)...coming out and winning there plastic trophies.

Keep your money and go pleasure run and find hounds that can perform in extreme conditions as well as normal conditions...they do exist.....

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Jim Hall
Buffalo Creek Kennels

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Jim ,

Please dont take this the wrong way...but ive seen you say this same ol "ukc hh is rough blah blah" for a while. Well im here to tell u you hav a distorted view of this format. Are there rough dogs? Sure no diff than spo that u like. Where u are wrong is thinking this is what wins consistently...cause it takes a lil more buddy than just swinging. The top dogs in HH are the real deal...if u think differently u are grossly mistaken buddy, furthermore ive been involved with ukc hh since 1997 and for many years never missed a trial...however u and i being from same area i never seen u at a trial. Truth is im sure you have good dogs but im gona bet if u put em down with some of our "100 yds cloud of dust" hounds u gona b pretty surprised how lil of the race your "clean" hound contributes when its behind more than its share. Im not knocking u or ur dogs u seem like a great guy and put time in your hounds but you really need to wake up

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Mitch Gould


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Mitch,

I understand your point of view, but the distortion is equal to both... you and I. I, first, don't run the "SPO" you all see in this area. It is Midwest or Large Pack on Hare hounds that are out in my yard. Not a head down and walk or jog type hound, but that is neither here nor there.

Has the UKC, which I thought you disbanned from???, created a dog that wins with less nose, faster foot, and less "control" of running the actual track and benefits from racing past it's pack mates and then regaining the line upon opportunity?? Sure it has..HH format.

Run what you like and feed what wins you plastic trophies....

The awakening might be if you ran with a few Midwest FCGD's or Large Pack FC's, that run a rabbit with style and even some foot. They could even run from 2nd, 3rd, or 4th(lets keep it UKC) and STILL be running the rabbit track and not horse racing the pack cause the front dog(a UKC Champ) is over the edge by 50 yards. Just giving examples.

I assure you...you are quite welcome to bring ANY hounds you have and come run with the hounds I have. I promise it to be more than civil and a hand shake at the end of it all.

When you refer to a hound not getting much track to run because it is not on the front is exactly why I got out of the little world of WV for a hound that suits me and can span the gap to Hare, Swamper, or cottontail.

Please don't be quick to think that there are not hounds that can run A VAST MAJORITY of the track from wherever they are in the pack. Those dogs do exist. I have NEVER said that ALL UKC hounds were "100 yards and a cloud of dust", BUT instead I say the format promotes that hound to achieve goals it is probably not worthy of, AND A GREAT HANDLER, helps that hound achieve those "low hanging fruit" goals.

Foot is only relative to track control IMO...maybe we can agree on that, BUT the picture that is painted by the Formats have taken that part of the equation away.

We can agree to disagree and you like what you feed and I will like what I feed.

I have evaluated enough UKC talent thru the years to see they have given the UKC the name it wears....take that for what it is.

TOP level hounds in any registry have done some things right on a consistent basis.

Come on over to run some dogs sometime!! Bring your friends. I DON'T get as excited as I may seem to...lol. I am just passionate about hounds as you are.

I wish you all much continued success in your endeavors...take care and good running to all!!

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Jim Hall
Buffalo Creek Kennels

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I sincerely invite anyone to come run. I assure you we can discuss different styles and have a great time following hounds.

I also promise if I see ANY line of hounds that consistently can make a rabbit race better for me. Then I will evaluate it more.

I am not in any way kennel blind, BUT most definitely style blind...lol.

Sometimes seeing the others(maybe better than yours) can be a humbling experience. I KNOW I have been there...lol.

Good running to all and happy competing to all...

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Jim Hall
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beaglers
we are not all going to agree on a style of hound and what format is the best, but isn't the ultiment goal is if the hound keeps the rabbit up and brings it around how fast it does it in or how the hound does it is not the answer Jim you mention that the UKC has created a hound with less nose faster foot and less control doesn't make sence to me for the fact is a hound can only run the rabbit ,hare,swamper as fast as his nose will let them, and as far as a hound that runs past a pack and gains control of the front is a hound with desire and it is what he does with the front that makes him a true running hound or not, in the end that rabbit comes around and meat is on the table. as far as ukc has hounds that are not worthy of there champion status im sure there are several ukc champions that would excell in your format and yes top level hounds has done it on consistant basis in the ukc as well. Regardless we all have hounds with different style of running and that is why there is different formats out there like i said before, it is all about keeping the rabbit up and bringing it around

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Central WV
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Jim,

First of all i have been all over this country running against and evaluating hounds from LP and midwest spo and yes i fully understand that u dont run pbga or ugbf. Ive watched our bitches totally destroy a 2x nlpch to the point we drove hours and didnt breed to that line. Ive witnessed ky midwest hounds run like train wreck so lets not act like akc is the primo clean running formats. Ive bought owned and bred to numerous bloodlines u are familar with so trust me ive been outa the "lil wv" as u called it. I dont wanna call out specific dogs or lines from akc but several of them did not have nearrrrrrr enough hunt and several were to "stand on their head in the check". Ive seen em all run buddy! What i found when we took Jake or Kita or Tootsie or whoever to run against these lines we were interested in was "wow we got somthing special too".
I always get a kick outa ppl say "he wins from behind" lol when he picked up a few bobbles but the other 90% he was behind. Should the dog carrying the line not get credit? Food for thought. Im not defending ukc or basking akc. My feeling about ukc are well documented as u put it "disbanned" which i am not banned btw. AKC has obviously many lines we like , if not u would not see them in our pedigrees in our breeding program which spans 4 gen and nearing 20 years btw. The only reason i posted on this is the disrespect your comments represent to many fine beagles and breeders represented in ukc HH spanning back decades many who have past on. If u wanna continue our convo Jim feel free call me this eve. I likewise have no animosity toward you and wish u well i only hope u re evaluate your comments generalizing a group of beagles and breeders. I have been critical of tbe format and the org. over the years, but make no mistake if a hound wins consistently in ukc HH...they are the real deal!

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Mitch Gould


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Good running to all.....your position is clear and respected......

Just like any format, and I do mean ANY, has morphed over the decades to suit the weekend warriors...

We have devalued a champion...made it too easy....but that is just the opinion of one guy.

Thanks again for the polite disagreement it is great for thought....and reflection...

Take care!

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Jim Hall
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quote:

---

Originally posted by BCBeagles
Always has to be the "format" is built to your dog.

The UKC HH "format" promotes the 100 yards and a cloud of dust dog with an average nose....TRUE? Fastest dog across the "line" gets the biggest chunk of points. What about when old buster overruns the end 40 yards and the dog behind it cuts his guts out again and again and again....LOL.

A dog with tracking skills that can run the rabbit regardless what the rest of the idiots around it does needs a different "format"...come on...really?? A dog with a nose to run on ice, snow, whatever has to be "format" specific....really??

This is why the same old guys keep posting the same two dogs winning there club hunts...and oh they have one cast of champs with 3 dogs...and wait...a cast of grands with 2 dogs.

Thinking outside the box WOULD bring out the new folks.. BUT .The same old rules keep the same old average nose dogs...with average tracking skills...pretty decent hunt(I will give them that)...coming out and winning there plastic trophies.

Keep your money and go pleasure run and find hounds that can perform in extreme conditions as well as normal conditions...they do exist.....

---

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cody rucker

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WOW, All I wanted to know is why a dog doesn't get credit for jumping a rabbit. If the majority of the hounds strike in: it's a rabbit unless otherwise proven wrong. The jump dog can't help it if there's a wild and crazy in there blowing it up. If the majority of the handlers see the rabbit: it's a rabbit. Jump dogs aren't getting the credit for half the rabbits they jump, but a fast dog will get credit for every first line he gets. OH! I get it now. Maybe this isn't the format for me? I like a dog that can jump a rabbit, fix a check and account for the rabbit. Wild a crazies blow up the run and if it can't be fixed in three minutes no jump is awarded? that's really sad!

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Nick

Last edited by Nick the NewGuy on 07-10-2015 at 06:27 PM

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Nick try some other formats if you get a chance. Folks are passionate about there dogs and the formats they compete in .
There are several formats that reward strikes,jumps and checks. The above mentioned formats I referenced in a previous post are good ones to look at. Good luck sir.

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I apologize for my less than tactful terms of description.

I do however still believe in what is promoted....I have never said ALL hounds were 100 yards and cloud of dust, BUT however the format PROMOTES an aggressive(even to a fault) type dog to benefit the most....THAT IS TRUE. That is what the question addressed....a dog was not benefited(scored) when it should have gotten merit for it's results.

I am confident there are nice hounds with HH titles...BUT the requirements to get that have been made so accessible by a quality handler that the "new guy" doesn't have a chance.

Low numbers at hunts...same old fellas run the same old "lines"....growth will be tough with the ongoing trends.

It is EXACTLY the same in other formats......AKC, PKC, and ARHA..numbers are down...

I appreciate the commitment by the guys who commented...I can disagree with someone and still not get excited..some not so much...

BUT 1000 folks looked at this and 4-5 commented...that may give you your answers in the way of thinking of the majority...but will it change...probably not...

Take care and run them hard.

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Jim Hall
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Jim, I agree! I have never seen a fault called on a dog in HH no matter how wild and crazy the dog is. There are definitely dogs with HH titles that couldn't circle a rabbit by themselves in a phone both. I believe if they gave credit for jumping a rabbit when it's due and started the 3 minute check clock immediately (10 seconds or so) they could remove the 3 limit rule on scoring speed and drive and you would have a completely fair trial and the best dog would win 90% of the time instead of the 10% of the time like it is now.

I also am starting to realize that the HH format is for the wacked out dog. Can't hold a rabbit but can steal a line just in time to score it. Leave a check and pick up a stray 200 yards away etc.

And as far as trying another format goes. Been there done that. ARHA, AKC. Had enough of that stuff. I may go the route of pleasure running and I am hunter first. It would save a whole lot of money.

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Nick

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Nick,
I am not going to argue with your bitter non-sense but I will answer your question to benefit any actual new guy who may be reading your nonsense.

First let me say that I have been actively and passionately involved in beagles since the late 60s. I value excellence in both physical and hunt ability. The hunt traits that I place the most value on are Search and jump/hunt desire, Line control combined with the speed appropriate to scenting conditions, and the absence of faults that distract from a great hunting experience (backtracking, off game, overrunning track to cause a breakdown in the progress of the track, boo-hooing around and not moving track, ... to name a few. Understand that I was a rabbit hunter for 30 years before ever attending a trial 15 years ago. So I am not a NEW Guy although some mornings I wish I was.LOL

With that said I will answer your question as to why a jump is not scored when the dogs can not run the track.

When the rabbit is seen by majority or non hunting judge and it is ran to a place of refuge the jump/strikes ARE scored. It is known to be a rabbit and the dogs showed no fault.

When a dog jumps a rabbit but can not run the track, for whatever reason, no credit is given for the jump. As a side note had a little terrier dog when I was a child that would do that all day. The UKC program requires the dogs to be able to run the track in order to receive credit for the jump because that is what we promote and value in our hounds. It is a HUNTING beagle program but we think of the actual running as synonymous with the hunting up or jumping of the rabbit. Fact is some days rabbit hunting in extreme conditions the dogs work hard but no rabbits are bagged. Some days you just enjoy the blessings of great times and fellowship with friends and family, a beautiful land, and the freedom to enjoy it.

Makes no sense to me that you have so much negative and bitterness against the UKC program and seemingly many if not all hunt programs. As a veteran rabbit hunter one thing that I know for certain is that the UKC system promotes hounds that are beneficial to a successful hunt. The best dog will not win every hunt just as the best marksman will miss an occasional rabbit The cream certainly has the potential to rise to the top when given the opportunity in the UKC beagle programs.

I am done with this thread and will waste no time arguing with your nonsense. I posted this for the New Guys who are reading with interest in a truly great program. Thanks for enduring the long read! Blessings to all! Dan M

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Deleted double post. Although some might should go back up and read it again.

Last edited by TOUCHSTONEBEAGL on 07-15-2015 at 09:11 PM

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well said dan

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TOUCHSTONEBEAGL: I can assure you that I have no negativity toward the UKC hunting beagle program. In fact it's the best format I have found for me. I am a hunter first. If you read my original post my question (although long winded) was simple. Why does a dog not get credit for the jump of a known rabbit? After all the answers, you finally answered that simple question. Thank you. With that said, I don't have to agree. We have dogs that are so rough that it's just check after check. We had a run that we scored a line and all the dogs still ended up minus 150 or more because of so many checks. and the recoveries are 100 yrds away. Those are my issues. I like the same kind of dog that you like. Good hunt, jump, line control and no faults. I just hate rough dogs that blow up the run.

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Nick

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I will go out on a limb here and say "who cares who jumps it and why should they get additional points for it"

Lets say my dog strikes a track and begins running it. Your dog hears my dog running the track and harks in. On the way to my dog he runs into the rabbit and "jumps" it. A dog should be rewarded for that? I can give more scenarios where a dog should not be rewarded then when they could.

Who says the dog that strikes in first isn't the one that "jumps" the rabbit and the hot nosed dogs that cant run the track for a bit run into the rabbit by accident?

I think the rules are pretty darn good now, this would add yet another rule to argue about.

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I have been involved with this format for many years and my opion is that in good to great conditions hunting beagle dogs are hard to beat. Nose is an area where we could really improve. I have seen time and again where other wise nice dogs including those I have owned came up against a wall in less then favorable conditions.

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If you don't care who jumps the rabbit, then screw it. we'll just score speed and drive. No use in scoring checks either. Just throw hound work out the window altogether. My question has been more than answered. All I need is super fast hound. Don't matter if he can hold on to it. Some other sucker can do all the work, I'll just grab first lines. Throw in some deer chases too since I can come back week after week but if I get into a scuffle with another dog over a dead rabbit I'm banned for a year. . Admin can delete this abortion any time. DONE!

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