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HOBO
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Weyers Cave Va
Posts: 13408

Breeding Question?

Breeding Question?
How many times would a dog have to be in say a 8 or 9 generation pedigree to have any effect on the cross if any?

Everyone likes to talk about their dogs being such n such bred but when you look at the papers said dog is way back in the pedigree but stacked several times. I'm not smart enough to know if that dog is still influencing todays dogs or not.

Let's use Boone Creek Mike for an example. Lets say he's in a 9 generation pedigree 11 times. Is there any influence from his blood coming through or it it way watered down by being so far back?

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But Looking To The Future...

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Old Post 02-25-2021 09:22 PM
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Redneck Mafia
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Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 5822

There are some computer programs that run the coefficients for you that will give the percentages of the various dogs in a pedigree.
Look up coefficient calculator..

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Last edited by Redneck Mafia on 02-25-2021 at 10:38 PM

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Old Post 02-25-2021 10:35 PM
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DL NH
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Registered: Jan 2016
Location:
Posts: 586

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
There are some computer programs that run the coefficients for you that will give the percentages of the various dogs in a pedigree.
Look up coefficient calculator..



So do these programs do anything more than calculate an ancestry percentage based on the number of times a certain dog or dogs show up in say a 7 generation pedigree?

If the answer is no, than the only people I can envision would be helped by that information are those who have built up a lot of first hand knowledge through woods time with the 1st 3 generations behind the present day hound in question. Anything less is here say............which again I understand. Who has time to travel all over the country to see all these dogs go?

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Old Post 02-26-2021 02:42 AM
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pamjohnson
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 2072

I have registered Holstein cattle. Most are black and white. Dominant trait. Some red and white. Recessive trait. It takes both parents carrying the Recessive trait for red to get a red offspring. I have had a red calf 7 generations later in the pedigree. I have also lost the red gene after the first generation.
Not sure if you can follow what I'm trying to explain but the gene your after may or may not come through to the next generation. With cattle we can send DNA samples and check with coonhounds it's a gamble.
This is a very complex topic but I hope this helps.

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Old Post 02-26-2021 02:23 PM
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Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
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Depends on what you mean by "effect on the cross". If talking about traits, only the parents "effect" the offspring. But the parent's parents "effected" them and so on back. If the parents don't have the traits that you are looking for then those traits aren't going to come through from their great grandparents.

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Old Post 02-26-2021 03:30 PM
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yadkinriver
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Yadkin County NC
Posts: 1656

Hobo you've been playing long enough to know the more times a dog is stacked in a pedigree the more likely you are to get a pup with all or most of his characteristics no matter how far back in the ped he may be, but don't expect all the pups to be like him. You may luck up and get his clone but thats gonna be rare as hens teeth. Youll have to go through a lot of pups and keep up with them to find the one special one.

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Old Post 02-26-2021 06:43 PM
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HOBO
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Weyers Cave Va
Posts: 13408

quote:
Originally posted by yadkinriver
Hobo you've been playing long enough to know the more times a dog is stacked in a pedigree the more likely you are to get a pup with all or most of his characteristics no matter how far back in the ped he may be, but don't expect all the pups to be like him. You may luck up and get his clone but thats gonna be rare as hens teeth. Youll have to go through a lot of pups and keep up with them to find the one special one.


I was just kinda curious, I ran a litter I have due mid March the other day and in 9 generations it shows Boone Creek Mike 19 times, Spring Creek Rock 24 times, Balls Hickory Nut Harry 26 times, Martin’s Golden Star 19 times, Dohoney’s Spice 12 times, Skeans Dolly 10 times, Dohoney’s Boone 24 times, Dohoney’s Lobo 6 times, House’s Clint 8 times...

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Swampmusic Kennel
Remembering Our Past......
Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch.Dohoney's Lobo
Ch.Swampmusic Lil Bit Sassy
Ch.Swampmusic Misty Shadow
Gr.Ch.Swampmusic Boone
Gr.Ch.Swampmusic Pride

But Looking To The Future...

Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch.Swampmusic Big Hoss




Dennis Robinson
Cell 540-295-3892

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Old Post 02-27-2021 12:57 AM
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Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1903

quote:
Originally posted by HOBO
I was just kinda curious, I ran a litter I have due mid March the other day and in 9 generations it shows Boone Creek Mike 19 times, Spring Creek Rock 24 times, Balls Hickory Nut Harry 26 times, Martin’s Golden Star 19 times, Dohoney’s Spice 12 times, Skeans Dolly 10 times, Dohoney’s Boone 24 times, Dohoney’s Lobo 6 times, House’s Clint 8 times...


Common sense tells me that if the above mentioned dogs were in a pedigree that many times that they should be good dogs and there should be a high percentage of good pups...
But then we have to decide what a good dog is to each breeder...

Let’s say there is a dog breeder known to breed and consistently produces top hounds...he passed away 30 years ago and someone inherited his dogs...20 and 30 years later a few stories come up about that line of dogs...

And buyers will start looking for that bloodline and they refer him to the person who inherited the dogs and has been breeding and selling them...

The kennel name of the hounds might be ongoing from the original owner but are the dogs of the same caliber?

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Old Post 02-28-2021 03:54 PM
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Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1903

quote:
Originally posted by HOBO
I was just kinda curious, I ran a litter I have due mid March the other day and in 9 generations it shows Boone Creek Mike 19 times, Spring Creek Rock 24 times, Balls Hickory Nut Harry 26 times, Martin’s Golden Star 19 times, Dohoney’s Spice 12 times, Skeans Dolly 10 times, Dohoney’s Boone 24 times, Dohoney’s Lobo 6 times, House’s Clint 8 times...


There must be a good reason why these dogs appear so many times in a pedigree...the higher the numbers the better the data...at least it sounds logical to me and I view it as positive...

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Old Post 02-28-2021 05:21 PM
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LoggyBayouBlues
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2009
Location: Haughton, Louisiana
Posts: 116

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Depends on what you mean by "effect on the cross". If talking about traits, only the parents "effect" the offspring. But the parent's parents "effected" them and so on back. If the parents don't have the traits that you are looking for then those traits aren't going to come through from their great grandparents.



X-2 What Mr. Lambert Said, anything past 3 Generations is wishful thinking!

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Old Post 03-01-2021 05:45 PM
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HOBO
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Weyers Cave Va
Posts: 13408

quote:
Originally posted by LoggyBayouBlues
X-2 What Mr. Lambert Said, anything past 3 Generations is wishful thinking!


I’m not so sure about that. I still see things passing down from Lobo and he’s 5 generations back in the pups I’m raising these days.

__________________
Swampmusic Kennel
Remembering Our Past......
Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch.Dohoney's Lobo
Ch.Swampmusic Lil Bit Sassy
Ch.Swampmusic Misty Shadow
Gr.Ch.Swampmusic Boone
Gr.Ch.Swampmusic Pride

But Looking To The Future...

Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch.Swampmusic Big Hoss




Dennis Robinson
Cell 540-295-3892

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Old Post 03-01-2021 09:09 PM
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PreacherTom
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2021
Location: NW Arkansas
Posts: 136

quote:
Originally posted by HOBO
I’m not so sure about that. I still see things passing down from Lobo and he’s 5 generations back in the pups I’m raising these days.


I think this is really difficult to determine. Don't you also see these same traits in dogs that are not line bred? I guess if you see it 60-80% of the time I would be convinced it was from a dog 5-6 generations back. I have always just looked at the parents, grandparents and aunts and uncles. But I am not a breeder and I have a hard time finding a dog that suits me so what do I know, lol?

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Old Post 03-01-2021 10:23 PM
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Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1903

quote:
Originally posted by HOBO
I’m not so sure about that. I still see things passing down from Lobo and he’s 5 generations back in the pups I’m raising these days.


It is written that the pups inherit 50% of genes from their sire and also 50% from their dam...25% from each grand parent and 12.5% from each great grandparent and so on...

The way I see it...the dogs that show up many times in a pedigree will contribute quite a bit to the gene pool...it makes sense to me that many of their genes will pass on further down the line...hopefully the more recent breeders of the dogs bred in the pedigree at least selected and bred the better pups...

There is no doubt in my mind I will choose this type of pedigree over an open pedigree where not many are related...that’s if I like the dogs that show up many times...and of course the sire and dam to the future pups should be good representatives of the good dogs from the past...the sire and dam hunting abilities should be the evidence you need...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Old Post 03-01-2021 11:37 PM
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