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UKC Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.3.0 UKC Forums > Departments > UKC Coonhounds > Proposal 9 - Silent on Track
Eliminate or keep the silent dog rule?
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Yes, eliminate the silent dog rule. 78 80.41%
No, keep the silent dog rule. 19 19.59%
Total: 97 votes 100%
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Allen / UKC
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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 8577

Proposal 9 - Silent on Track

9. Silent on Track.

ē Eliminate Rule 6 (e) {if dog is continuously silent on track}.


PROPOSAL 9. Whenís the last time you saw a judge enforce the silent dog rule? Was that also the first time youíve ever seen it enforced? Should it be eliminated, or should more emphasis be put on judges to stand up and enforce it? Does a silent dog pose a threat in terms of having any advantage? Are they at a disadvantage? Would eliminating the rule change breeding practices with any major consequences?

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Old Post 05-29-2019 09:06 PM
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Dogwhisper
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2005
Location:
Posts: 1545

With 1 hour hunts and tree count down . Time to eliminate it !
I've seen more dogs scratched for handlers not declareing their dog struk than dogs scratched for being silent.
IMO silent dogs on average are smarter dogs... Both can be bred side by side with no major consequences, but resulting in an option to choose from.

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gpent24
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Registered: Jan 2017
Location: mccomb, ms
Posts: 142

i think the silent dog rule is silly. the silent dog has no advantage. I've heard a lot of the old timers will say "it jeopardizes the breed for a dog to be silent". But that makes no sense because if you are breeding for open track style dogs that go and get treed first you beat the silent dog 10/10 times. What i don't' like is that when a silent dog gets by himself and trees a coon and is better than everything in the cast, then all of a sudden they want to start pulling out this rule to try and beat it, I've had it happen multiple times. The rules should be set so the best dog that particular night wins. Whether that be the dog who opens a million times on track or the dog who's first bark is on the tree. It's supposed to be about which dog trees the most coons. So I am wholeheartedly for eliminating it.

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Dogwhisper
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Registered: Feb 2005
Location:
Posts: 1545

I think it's time to redue the breed standards...not just the nite hunt rules...
Does today's nite hunt dog fit yesteryears standard...?

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Pat Bizich
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2004
Location: northeast
Posts: 1129

I vote to keep it for one reason .
Nite hunt rules were originally written to have a specific standard that trailing and treeing coonhounds were expected to meet as well as compete with those expected standards.
Without this rule I suspect many will begin purposefully breeding still mouth hounds. Add this to the get deep and alone with the proposal to penalize dogs treeing on a tree with a coon but got there late(proposal 7).And some of the other the proposals submitted this could turn into a reality of we may as well let the curs into our nite hunts to compete too.

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Pat Bizich
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2004
Location: northeast
Posts: 1129

quote:
Originally posted by gpent24
i think the silent dog rule is silly. the silent dog has no advantage. I've heard a lot of the old timers will say "it jeopardizes the breed for a dog to be silent". But that makes no sense because if you are breeding for open track style dogs that go and get treed first you beat the silent dog 10/10 times.

I am going to disagree/ agreeably with you on this . I personally have seen let's be nice and say tight mouth dogs. If they are also the type that get hunting quick . Or you are in thicker coon cause odds are they will be split the majority of time YOU HAVE A HARD TIME BEATING THEM.
Here is what I have seen. They go hunting getting by themselves. Some and many will open or maybe locating several times just before getting treed.. Now the handler already knows this so they know the next time they hear them they will be treed.
So unless another dog has another track going, is near , or right there they essentially are going to be getting shut out on strike and can only hope to get there in time to get a piece of the tree.
Now add this in conjunction with some new proposals like the tree count down, other dogs getting to trees late taking minus if a coon is seen. Giving a dog for coming into a tree after judge arrives minus on track .All these proposals to me are beginning to sound like they are all for the benefit of not nose ,tight mouth, go deep and get alone type dogs.
This is going to really change the type of dogs doing all the winning in the future.

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IT SEEMS THAT EVERYTIME A BREED OR LINE OF DOGS GET POPULAR IT EVENTUALLY LEADS TO ITS RUINATION BY UNINFORMED PEOPLE BREEDING WITHOUT DOING THEIR RESEARCH FIRST.

Gone but never forgotten:
NtChGrCh Dryfork Punkin
NtChGrCh Dryfork Little Blue Baby Doll
2009 Pa Show Dog Of The Year
GrCh Dryfork Little Black Book

Home of:

2009,2013,2018 Pa. State
Show Handler Of The Year
GrCh Dryfork Black Dog Raine
Gr.Ch. Black Dog Black Cherry
Gr.Ch. Make My Day Sunny
2018 Pa. Show Dog Of Year
Gr.Ch. Batman's Poison Ivy
2011&2013 WTDA Pa State Champion
2011&2013 Overall Hunt For The Cure
Ch. Jay's Greenridge Heidi
In memory of my best friend "Jay"

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gpent24
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2017
Location: mccomb, ms
Posts: 142

quote:
Originally posted by Pat Bizich
I am going to disagree/ agreeably with you on this . I personally have seen let's be nice and say tight mouth dogs. If they are also the type that get hunting quick . Or you are in thicker coon cause odds are they will be split the majority of time YOU HAVE A HARD TIME BEATING THEM.
Here is what I have seen. They go hunting getting by themselves. Some and many will open or maybe locating several times just before getting treed.. Now the handler already knows this so they know the next time they hear them they will be treed.
So unless another dog has another track going, is near , or right there they essentially are going to be getting shut out on strike and can only hope to get there in time to get a piece of the tree.
Now add this in conjunction with some new proposals like the tree count down, other dogs getting to trees late taking minus if a coon is seen. Giving a dog for coming into a tree after judge arrives minus on track .All these proposals to me are beginning to sound like they are all for the benefit of not nose ,tight mouth, go deep and get alone type dogs.
This is going to really change the type of dogs doing all the winning in the future.



So you're saying that dogs that don't do any work on a tree and get their mouth open quickly should be rewarded more than a dog who doesn't open quick but goes and trees a coon? You just proved my point somewhat. Let me give you a situation that i have seen happen i don't know how many times by the parameters you just laid out. Dog A is struck for 100 on every cut of a 4 dog cast. Dog B is silent on track. Dog B goes and gets by himself first drop toting last strike first tree. Dog A covers him at 4:30 on tree. Dog A gets 175+ Dog B is 150+. Next drop same exact thing Dog A strikes first Dog B strikes last Dog B goes gets treed by hisself Dog A comes in at 4:58 and covers. Dog A is at 350+ and Dog B is at 300+. Dog A hasn't done anything but cover all night. I've seen that dog win so many times over the years and I'm glad they are getting rid of some of these rules. People with babblers and me too dogs are gonna be upset of course.

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Last edited by gpent24 on 05-30-2019 at 09:04 PM

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Pat Bizich
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2004
Location: northeast
Posts: 1129

No I did not prove your point. Better re-read and comprehend what I wrote.

First I said nothing about late tree dogs" EXCEPTING " if the tight mouth "LONER" does just that which
"DOES NOT GIVE" another dog "TIME TO COVER". .
Giving that loner FIRST STRIKE AND FIRST TREE ,SHUTTING OUT available strike points to other dogs.

Second YOU not I, want to do away with the silent rule completely.

Third you said silent dogs don't normally win a cast and I disagreed with you saying they are harder to beat in thick coon. Above per my example and I have in fact seen it several times and know dogs granded out.

FOURTH THESE ARE YOUR WORDS NOT MINE...ÖÖ.

So you're saying that dogs that don't do any work on a tree and get their mouth open quickly should be rewarded more than a dog who doesn't open quick but goes and trees a coon?

Don't be mis-interpreting and saying I said something I did not say.

__________________
IT SEEMS THAT EVERYTIME A BREED OR LINE OF DOGS GET POPULAR IT EVENTUALLY LEADS TO ITS RUINATION BY UNINFORMED PEOPLE BREEDING WITHOUT DOING THEIR RESEARCH FIRST.

Gone but never forgotten:
NtChGrCh Dryfork Punkin
NtChGrCh Dryfork Little Blue Baby Doll
2009 Pa Show Dog Of The Year
GrCh Dryfork Little Black Book

Home of:

2009,2013,2018 Pa. State
Show Handler Of The Year
GrCh Dryfork Black Dog Raine
Gr.Ch. Black Dog Black Cherry
Gr.Ch. Make My Day Sunny
2018 Pa. Show Dog Of Year
Gr.Ch. Batman's Poison Ivy
2011&2013 WTDA Pa State Champion
2011&2013 Overall Hunt For The Cure
Ch. Jay's Greenridge Heidi
In memory of my best friend "Jay"

Last edited by Pat Bizich on 05-30-2019 at 09:47 PM

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davemc
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2007
Location:
Posts: 948

Silent

I would rather own or hunt against a silent dog, Than the automatic babbling idiots that are out there. Sad to say but a lot of people are breeding for this type of hound. GET RID OF SILENT RULE.

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pamjohnson
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 1612

Truthfully the rule never keep out the silent dogs anyway. As long as a dog is treeing coon it should have a chance to win that is what it's about.

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Bill(Chew)
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Washington, NC
Posts: 3084

How many silent dogs get 2nd or 3rd strike EVERY turn out? I've seen lots of pitching with silent dogs. Yes, I have scratched a silent dog in a hunt; it also almost caused a fight. I've also judged many silent dogs that were open on at least one track per night.

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Sgraves
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2017
Location:
Posts: 117

You said it right Pat , folks donít like getting beat by that style dog. So you say there is a chance of getting shut out on strick points? Maybe so , but that sounds more fair than stricking one of the snap. Itís all about having that advantage .

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Chuck Allen
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2012
Location: Amerika land of the free?
Posts: 1001

Just eliminate the strike points all together , or they are just circled or deleted depending on if coon is in the tree or not , so it does not matter if a dog is silent or a babbler.

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Sgraves
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Registered: Dec 2017
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Posts: 117

quote:
Originally posted by gpent24
So you're saying that dogs that don't do any work on a tree and get their mouth open quickly should be rewarded more than a dog who doesn't open quick but goes and trees a coon? You just proved my point somewhat. Let me give you a situation that i have seen happen i don't know how many times by the parameters you just laid out. Dog A is struck for 100 on every cut of a 4 dog cast. Dog B is silent on track. Dog B goes and gets by himself first drop toting last strike first tree. Dog A covers him at 4:30 on tree. Dog A gets 175+ Dog B is 150+. Next drop same exact thing Dog A strikes first Dog B strikes last Dog B goes gets treed by hisself Dog A comes in at 4:58 and covers. Dog A is at 350+ and Dog B is at 300+. Dog A hasn't done anything but cover all night. I've seen that dog win so many times over the years and I'm glad they are getting rid of some of these rules. People with babblers and me too dogs are gonna be upset of course.
Sounds like dog A needs to be shot.

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gpent24
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Registered: Jan 2017
Location: mccomb, ms
Posts: 142

quote:
Originally posted by Sgraves
Sounds like dog A needs to be shot.


If i had a dollar for every time i have thought that exact thing on a cast i could afford a coon dog that never lost.

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lblhunter
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Registered: Sep 2018
Location: west ky
Posts: 38

dog A

If all the dog A's were shot would cut down on hunt numbers. lol

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honalieh
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 1772

Re: Proposal 9 - Silent on Track

quote:
Originally posted by Allen / UKC
9. Silent on Track.

ē Eliminate Rule 6 (e) {if dog is continuously silent on track}.


PROPOSAL 9. Whenís the last time you saw a judge enforce the silent dog rule? Was that also the first time youíve ever seen it enforced? Should it be eliminated, or should more emphasis be put on judges to stand up and enforce it? Does a silent dog pose a threat in terms of having any advantage? Are they at a disadvantage? Would eliminating the rule change breeding practices with any major consequences?



Before doing this, you would/should have to change the breed standards that call for open trailing, otherwise you create rules in conflict with your own breed standards. If that's the case, why pretend to have breed standards?

If a dog doesn't meet breed standards (open trailing), should it be bred?

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gpent24
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2017
Location: mccomb, ms
Posts: 142

Re: Re: Proposal 9 - Silent on Track

quote:
Originally posted by honalieh
Before doing this, you would/should have to change the breed standards that call for open trailing, otherwise you create rules in conflict with your own breed standards. If that's the case, why pretend to have breed standards?

If a dog doesn't meet breed standards (open trailing), should it be bred?



What are we breeding for if we aren't breeding dogs who tree the most coons in the shortest amount of time.

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Sgraves
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Registered: Dec 2017
Location:
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As much as I like to hear a dog run track I really donít see any advantage a tight , silent mouth dog has in these hunts. If you hunt one you have to tree one or more coon to win. People are up in air over all the rule changes are against open trailing dogs an in favor of silent mouth. I really believe the case is people who has the so called open trailing hounds has their on definition of one. An ruling is in favor of them. An no one wants to see a change because it will interfere with the advantage the open trailing hounds have, rather that advantage is right or wrong.

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Dave Richards
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Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 2898

Dogs

This post is entertaining, just because a dog is silent does not make the dog a good coondog, nor does being an open trailing dog make it a coondog. If a silent dog can beat an open dog consistently all night, then the silent dog is just a better coondog period. If I get beat by a silent track dog, I need a better coondog not worrying about some rule about silent track dogs. I have owned both silent and open trailing COONDOGS and both were hard to beat, only because they were COONDOGS and not because they were open or silent. The way dogs are so independent these days and go in different directions, a silent dog is at a disadvantage on strike points and if they can win, they deserve the win. Dave

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Charles Pullen
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Registered: May 2010
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Silent track dogs !

I thought the purpose was to better the coonhounds not to degrade them . Iíve heard it all now . Letting the silent mouth track dogs to participate. Next it will be let the all aggression at a tree allowed . Last dog standing wins . To me the purpose of the hunts is to go and see how good of a dog you got . What kind of track dog you have ? How can you judge a dogs tracking ability if heís hot /cold nose etc . I cannot even imagine this would even be considered. If passed this would be a step backwards to the hunts

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Sgraves
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Registered: Dec 2017
Location:
Posts: 117

Seems like it really is a sin for a dog to keep his mouth shut. I mean really, is the only thing that can run a track have to run his mouth non stop. Said it before, I love to hear a dog work a track. But whose to say a dog chooses to keep his mouth shut an still run track. Not being silly by saying that. All this crap on what a dog should do is nothing more than that crap. I mean, put more attention towards what trees the coon. I know itís against breed standards. I think half the time people has to keep on bringing up the negative stuff because their dog canít tree coon.

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Charles Pullen
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I guess thatís how some dog can tree a live raccoon by not saying nothing and sneaking up on it . Then again thatís the way some people are just looking for the easiest way out .

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Rapidan River Kennels

Past hounds :
GrNitech Rapidan River Ragin Rambo Htx ( Bo )
Nitech Auburn Hills Black Dymond
Nitech Wilsons Black Pepper ( littermate to Ox )
Nitech Green Valley Dixie
Nitech Rapidan River Black Booty Htx ( Boo ) Sold to James Norman

Present Hounds :
Walker : Rapidan River Trip
Walker : Rapidan River little Ed

* Frozen Semen stored at Nevergone
GrNitech Rapidan River Ragin Rambo
GrNitech Dark Hollow Tige

Charles Pullen
Culpeper , Va
540-718-5211

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Sgraves
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Registered: Dec 2017
Location:
Posts: 117

quote:
Originally posted by Charles Pullen
I guess thatís how some dog can tree a live raccoon by not saying nothing and sneaking up on it . Then again thatís the way some people are just looking for the easiest way out .
No easier than stricking off the lead an falling treed on a hot pop up.

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Charles Pullen
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quote:
Originally posted by Sgraves
No easier than stricking off the lead an falling treed on a hot pop up.
Lol 😂

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Rapidan River Kennels

Past hounds :
GrNitech Rapidan River Ragin Rambo Htx ( Bo )
Nitech Auburn Hills Black Dymond
Nitech Wilsons Black Pepper ( littermate to Ox )
Nitech Green Valley Dixie
Nitech Rapidan River Black Booty Htx ( Boo ) Sold to James Norman

Present Hounds :
Walker : Rapidan River Trip
Walker : Rapidan River little Ed

* Frozen Semen stored at Nevergone
GrNitech Rapidan River Ragin Rambo
GrNitech Dark Hollow Tige

Charles Pullen
Culpeper , Va
540-718-5211

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