Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Northwest Georgia
Posts: 1621

Went back and read a article by a man that was a remarkable family( line bred) breeder and here were some of his notes, thought I would pass them along. I have found everything he said thru the years to be true.

Quotes: It is almost impossible to breed anything that have allot of different genes in them.

Genes that affect your look and performance go back mostly to 4 generations. Try and lock the 4 generations.

Intelligent Selection is the name of the game.

Environment is 50%.( wow!)

Most families are ruined by adding a new blood or by making a bad choice in the ones you breed back.

The ones you choose to breed back, without allot of mixed up genes to deal with you will see the good characteristics passed on to the next generation.

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Registered: Mar 2004
Location: Northwest Indiana
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Very interesting points, I have seen hunters make a cross of very good coondogs (unrelated hounds) and say "well if this cross don't make coondogs nothing will", and usually it didn't work.....
Genetics is something that is hard to predict, but linebreeding with 2 individual hounds that operate similar in the woods give you a better chance for success. jmo

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"The ones you choose to breed back, without allot of mixed up genes to deal with you will see the good characteristics passed on to the next generation."

You will also see all the bad characteristics passed on as well. Most dogs have more bad characteristics than good. Close bloodlines also are a big factor in health issues. You didn't see near the health problems 30 yrs ago as you do today because of all the out crosses (hybed vigor). When you look at some of the dogs winningest dogs of the past, they were from random crosses. Then because of the demand of pups from that dog usally a line is develpoed. Because of the mass amount of pups on the ground from that dog it may be considered a good reproducer, but usally never produces a dog that is as good or better than it was. JMO

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Wannabe breeders and brood bitches are the problem. Mostly crossing the flavor of the day with a set of papers.

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Registered: Jan 2009
Location: Fort Valley, GA
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What is wrong with a brood bitch?in the 50's,60's and early 70's
Many hound breeder/hunters kept females strictly for breeding and were not hunted.They said they were worth more in the breeding pen.Look at your old peds most females in older peds were never titled .A few were pleasure dogs or hide dogs at best.

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Registered: Aug 2013
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If people just breed what they are planning to hunt and cull instead of pawning them off we would be better of instead of tryin to get rich and famous off of a dog its silly to me.

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quote:

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Originally posted by glynnsdawgs63
What is wrong with a brood bitch?in the 50's,60's and early 70's
Many hound breeder/hunters kept females strictly for breeding and were not hunted.They said they were worth more in the breeding pen.Look at your old peds most females in older peds were never titled .A few were pleasure dogs or hide dogs at best.

Glynn Holmes
478-662-4238
www.tellsblueticks.webs.com

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Last edited by Stan Ferrell on 02-07-2015 at 10:31 PM

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Registered: Jan 2009
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I hunt all my females on bear or coon and they have to prove themselves more so than a stud dog before I consider even breeding her.
I posted my last comment because truthfully many of our old breeders kept non hunting brood females.

Glynn Holmes
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www.tellsblueticks.webs.com

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THERE WERE BROOD FEMALES BRED BY THE OLD BREEDERS SOME GOOD PUPS SOME BAD PUPS THERES BROOD FEMALES IN A LOT OF BREEDERS PENS NOW DAYS ALSO...BUT LET ME ASK THIS ,,HOW MANY FEMALES NOW DAYS ARE BRED THAT ARE BEING HUNTED EVERYNIGHT THAT LOOK GOOD,AWSOME,WORTH A MILLION WITH ANOTHER DOG BUT CANT BEGIN TO TREE A COON BY THERE SELVES THEM KIND ARE WORTHLESS TO ME ..BUT THE OWNERS TAKE THEM AND PUMP THEM UP WITH THE FAVORITE DOG OF THE MONTH AND EXPECT BIG THINGS FROM THE PUPS.ALL YA GET FROM THAT KINDA CROSS IS ANOTHER LITTER OF PUPS.IF BREEDERS WOULD BE TRUTHFUL TO THERE SELVES AND WHAT CALIBUR OF HOUND THEY HAVE DO YOUR HOMEWORK AND THINK ABOUT IT BEFORE BREEDING ,THERE WOULD BE A BETTER PERCENTAGE OF BETTER PUPS AROUND. THIS IS JUST MY OPINION,,,HAVE A BLESSED ONE ,,,RON

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Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Northwest Georgia
Posts: 1621

Alright lets stay on target
If you say no to the first topic, then please tell me your experience how many generations did it take till it went bad?
Hear say drives me crazy, almost everything that I hear(negative) about line breeding or inbreeding is false to what I have seen threw the years.
In 30 plus years of traveling and talking to cattlemen, hound men, Goat breeders, feist breeders and lots of gamecock breeders(best at keeping family lines) The good ones all tell me the same, if your going to keep a good consistent product you must keep it tight.Out crosses become something else.

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ALWAYS REMEMBER GOD GAVE US FRIENDS AND COONHOUNDS, " I AM A GREATLY BLESSED",HIGHLY FAVORED" " IMPERFECT BUT FORGIVEN CHILD OF GOD "KEEP YOUR {FAITH IN GOD } FAITH SEES THE INVISIBLE,BELIEVES THE INCREDIBLE,AND RECIEVES THE IMPOSSIBLE. WERE BLESSED !!

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I made a cross once whole litter made top dogs made the same cross again same dog same female whole litter was worthless I don't think there are ever any guarantees

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Registered: Jul 2012
Location: Greenville, North Carolina
Posts: 210

Keeping a line tight works great until its so tight you have to outcross, From some of the comments up here that outcrossed litters are worthless, I guarantee if yal knew the accurate ped on the dogs yal feed you would be amazed, it takes all kinds to make a team you don't see a team of baseball player with 9 pitchers..

If you were given a dog and it turned out to be one of the best hounds you ever had that always put fire in your heart and a smile on your face I bet 50% would come from brood gyps, once again it takes a variety to make a team, its not all or none..

Last edited by hunter todd elk on 02-08-2015 at 02:31 AM

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quote:

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Originally posted by yadkintar
I made a cross once whole litter made top dogs made the same cross again same dog same female whole litter was worthless I don't think there are ever any guarantees

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Last edited by Mike Van Dusen on 02-08-2015 at 04:32 AM

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I line breed quite extensively. When I see an opportunity to outcross for a needed trait or to something similar but stronger in a particular area, I watch the average of the littler. If the littler as a whole keeps the traits of my line or improves in some area then I blend some of it back into more of the same line. If not then I call that a wash and leave out that addition in the future. If you take that outcross and outcross again, you can loose what you started with very quickly. One thing everyone considering breeding coondogs should know, and I guarantee this, the easiest thing to loose is a good mouth. If you want one, you better protect it at every turn.

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Again we are not saying it is the only way, if you want to produce coonhounds, the majority breed coonhound to coonhound and you will get some coonhounds.
We are talking about a family line that only has certain traits, and you know what they look like, sound like, trail like etc...
You know there characteristics.
At one time I was raising allot of good pups out of my females and decided to go and buy more females "same blood lines" but not my line, bred to my males. I only knew a 1/3 of the puppies they were different, not the same, did not have the smarts that I bred for.
Learned a hard expensive lesson, I could produce pups but not whole litters, like I was used to on a smaller scale with only my linebred dogs.Thankfully I was able to keep my line.
Where do you think most of the ole great lines have gone?
They get famous get outcrossed and fade into the big ocean.
We are talking about a family line here, not making a single dog that can tree a coon.
Brookshire, clover, finley river, skuna river, lone pine, Dave Dean, yadkin river etc.....

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Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

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I have learned several expensive lessons I have a dog I am watching right now bred just like my dogs a coon treeing machine a world ch but I am going to wait and see what he reproduces first before I breed to many people jump to a dog when they win a big hunt before they see what they are going to reproduce I learned that lesson the hard way

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Registered: Feb 2012
Location: Harleton Texas
Posts: 488

Around 1990 I bred a Lipper daughter to a Lipper son they were out of different Line of females . They had similar mouth nose hunting style etc . From that cross(6) 3 of the females made NTCH one of the males was stolen but was a nice hound another male was killed and I don't know what became of the other . I bred one of the females to Mark Whatleys New Moon which was distantly related but had similar traits and he also came from a very strong litter . From that cross of 6 pups we got 2 NTCH females and at that time the youngest dual grand male ever . I think the key to that success is we were line breeding dogs of similar traits that also came from strong litters . I was told a dog only produces the average of his/her littermates along with line breeding seems to be the way to go . Of Course we didn't make any money we mostly placed dogs with hunters .Lol Ive never made money in this sport , Someone is cause Im spending a ton . There is a local dog in my area that should be a great reproducer and that would be Josh Howards Train . He comes from an entire litter of Coon Dogs if someone had a close related female from a good litter that cross would be a safe bet

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quote:

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Originally posted by CONRAD FRYAR

In 30 plus years of traveling and talking to cattlemen, hound men, Goat breeders, feist breeders and lots of gamecock breeders(best at keeping family lines) The good ones all tell me the same, if your going to keep a good consistent product you must keep it tight.Out crosses become something else. [/B]

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Rebecca Agee

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Conrad Frayar, I respect your comments and opion please don't take my comments wrong.

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Rebecca Agee

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Nobody culls dogs anymore thats the problem just pass em on and ol so n so breeds junk then that gets passed on. people want to make money dumb people spend it. dont take junk to a stud dog people if its junk cull! If your tryin to make money on dogs sell puggles or something if you want a top hound breed for it with dogs YOU have hunted with and are consistant not a wow tree dog that cant track or whats worse yet all these show dogs dang people thats a joke!

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Hey I'm all about discussion, you won't see me get mad.
I hear that all the time about cattle and so on being different but I myself do not believe that to be true, I have bred all the above that we talked about and each one has it's own area's that need to be worked on but you go about the breeding process the same way.
I see no difference at all? Yes coonhounds may have more traits but the breeding process to close the traits is the same.

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Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

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quote:

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Originally posted by CONRAD FRYAR
Hey I'm all about discussion, you won't see me get mad.
I hear that all the time about cattle and so on being different but I myself do not believe that to be true, I have bred all the above that we talked about and each one has it's own area's that need to be worked on but you go about the breeding process the same way.
I see no difference at all? Yes coonhounds may have more traits but the breeding process to close the traits is the same.

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Location: Northwest Georgia
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Hunts used to have an impact on me , not any more.
I breed for Smarts, Balance, Bawl mouth,Smarts( i hate a dumb dog) and Looks. I have to like to hear them and like how they hunt and like how they look. Picky I guess, Lol my wife say's she is glad she was not one of my hounds.

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Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

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Can we breed for these traits? Yes or no?
1) Big hunt
2) Bawl mouth
3)Track Speed
4)Looks
5) Smarts

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Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

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