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Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1903

Fast Track

I have been reading some posts that mention fast track dogs that can take it away from other dogs and get to the tree ahead of the other dogs...

I would like to hear your thoughts on this type of dog...

I had the pleasure of owning a top track driving dog that was hard to beat most any day or night...his name was Smoke...I bred Smokes sister before she was a year old because she was a good one as well...I tested the pups and a yellow pup was showing me things I had never seen before from a pup...at eight weeks old he always led his siblings around when I ran a drag for them... I named that pup Yeller and at 9 months old he was a pup that was showing me he was as good as Smoke...he also had a colder nose than Smoke..

Those two dogs competed hard against each other and Smoke was very jealous of Yeller...

Back then we didn’t own any telemetry so we listened to the dogs and I told the story to my brother as I saw it in my minds eye...the way I saw it unfold is like this...Smoke was tops...but Yeller had the brain power...
I will explain one scenario as I believe it played out...there was a pack of 15 or so hogs feeding most the night in about a 15 or 20 acre area...Yeller and Smoke hit that area about the same time...Smoke is yipping a little here and there working out the tracks...he is about 2 years old and Yeller is one year old...

While Smoke is spending 2 or 3 minutes finding the exit tracks Yeller makes one quick loop and hits the hot tracks and he is gone and at close to 3/4 mile he is bayed...
While Smoke is a great dog and can find one fairly quick through hard hunting and sticking with it...

Meanwhile Yeller on the other hand knows where to look and how to look...these two dogs taught me quite a bit... I gave Smoke to my brother because I wanted him to have a great dog too...

As Yeller got older and when we got to the woods Yeller would make a quick loop and if he came back you might as well load up and go elsewhere...or he would hang close because there were no hogs around...and when he silently trotted off after a long stroll you can bet he will be bayed somewhere because he is smelling hog...it seemed no matter how hard the other dogs hunted he still would out strike them...he just knew where to find game...and lining out a track was super simple for him...I’ve had my share of good dogs and some better than Smoke...but I have never owned another like Yeller...Yeller made it look easy...he was smart at 8 weeks old...he amazed me at 4 months old...and about every time I took him out there after...he was faster on track but not by much...it was the brain power that made him faster...

It took me several years to figure out the difference between great dogs and once in a lifetime dogs because both are really good...and then one day it came to me...the difference is brain power...natural born brain power...he showed it to me as a puppy...

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Last edited by Reuben on 03-05-2019 at 11:25 AM

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Ron Jackson
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Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1513

If this thread had a like button l would push it! Great job on getting your point across on what you personally experienced.

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Rocketman55
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2008
Location: SE Ohio, Glouster
Posts: 2244

Interesting read Mr. Reuben. I too had a dog many years ago that taught me the difference between a dog that can tree a coon and a real smart coon dog.

Now looking back, I agree that what separated him from other dogs was his ability to use his brain along with his physical abilities.

He was physically able to out run most hounds on a sight chase, but we all know a hound is really only as fast as his nose will take him. So after saying that, I can say he had the physical ability to get on the front end, but he also had the mental ability to cut through the twists and turns of a track, and line that thing out and make it go somewhere fast.

Though I feel your post is more representative of watching your hound track hogs, I can apply that same intelligence to my dogs ability to catch coons.

When the stars line up, and you find that hound that has the superior physical abilities, and you add to that the exceptional ability to out think other dogs in their mental capacity, and you then provide the opportunity to hone their skills to near perfection, you then have that Once in a Lifetime hound.

It sounds like you had two littermate with near equal physical abilities, but the one that had the superior mental abilities proved to be the one you chose as your favorite hound.

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Kler Kry
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2009
Location: Monticello, Wi
Posts: 744

Extreme Intelligence

Couldn't agree with you more. Best dog I ever owned, Mick and the next best dog, Penney were 40 years apart. Without a high I.Q. you just have a nice dog. Current pup I named "Perfect" at 3 weeks old because of her high intelligence and she isn't disappointing me! I'm the slow learner.

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Kler Kry
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2009
Location: Monticello, Wi
Posts: 744

Re: Extreme Intelligence

quote:
Originally posted by Kler Kry
Couldn't agree with you more. Best dog I ever owned, Mick and the next best dog, Penney were 40 years apart. Without a high I.Q. you just have a nice dog. Current pup I named "Perfect" at 3 weeks old because of her high intelligence and she isn't disappointing me! I'm the slow learner.


Mick and Penney are the only dogs that I've observed would make "pack dogs" out of normally independent loner type dogs after treeing a couple coon on them, the loner type dogs wouldn't even try to tree a coon and just pack! Can you explain it?

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Dogwhisper
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Registered: Feb 2005
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Yellar was working "smarter not harder" ...
I personally put a premium on brains ....

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Dogwhisper
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Registered: Feb 2005
Location:
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Re: Re: Extreme Intelligence

quote:
Originally posted by Kler Kry
Mick and Penney are the only dogs that I've observed would make "pack dogs" out of normally independent loner type dogs after treeing a couple coon on them, the loner type dogs wouldn't even try to tree a coon and just pack! Can you explain it?


JMO:
Them loner type dogs .. .didn't have no choice, but to fall in line with a " dominateing" ALPHA dog...... and I don't mean that in a aggressive lane......at least them loners submitted.
Some loners get their "minds blown" when hunted with dogs like ur's.....I believe I read a post about loners falling apart .

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Ron Moore
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Registered: Jan 2006
Location: WV
Posts: 821

Great Read!

Some great points brought up here. I've been reading on some other threads about deep and alone and track speed and quickness etc...... Of course applying this thread to coon hounds in stead of hog hunting sounds pretty different but a track dog is a track dog in any situation. I often wondered how some folks can call their deep and alone hounds a track dog when there is nothing to compare them to. As mentioned before, a true track dog will steal the track away from a pack and pull away like a race car with fresh tires! I'm sure deep and alone can and will win in the hunts but I would prefer track speed ahead of all else as long as it has the brains to look up and stay. Ole Yeller makes a person smile and I agree that these types of dogs are born. You can't teach track speed and lack of brains.

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Preacher Tom
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Registered: Feb 2015
Location: NW Arkansas
Posts: 1108

Re: Great Read!

quote:
Originally posted by Ron Moore
Some great points brought up here. I've been reading on some other threads about deep and alone and track speed and quickness etc...... Of course applying this thread to coon hounds in stead of hog hunting sounds pretty different but a track dog is a track dog in any situation. I often wondered how some folks can call their deep and alone hounds a track dog when there is nothing to compare them to. As mentioned before, a true track dog will steal the track away from a pack and pull away like a race car with fresh tires! I'm sure deep and alone can and will win in the hunts but I would prefer track speed ahead of all else as long as it has the brains to look up and stay. Ole Yeller makes a person smile and I agree that these types of dogs are born. You can't teach track speed and lack of brains.


Ron this is what I was talking about in my thread "Deep and
Alone". Guess I named it wrong. I have seen very few of these dogs. Don't have any idea if what holds true running hogs holds true running coon but would expect it to. I have never hog hunted but I would expect the hog to leave more scent but really don't know.

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Old Post 03-05-2019 04:47 PM
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Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1903

Thanks everyone...I read some of the posts on deep and alone and about those dogs that could take that strike away from the other dogs and get treed quickly...and that got me to thinking about Yeller...I don’t think it is a much faster dog that gets it done...IMO it is knowing how to work the track more than anything else...

As I already mentioned...Yeller was pretty fast...but it wasn’t the speed as much as how he drifted the feeder tracks...cut and slash and find the hot end quickly while other dogs were trying to figure out the hot end of the tracks...

Part of it could have been the colder nose and the other part brains...he had the knack for finding game...

A friend of mine had one of those get deep quick kind of Walker’s that kicked up rocks in your face when leaving out...at about 100 yards ahead he didn’t slow down...Yeller cut to the right in a rice field at that spot and worked for about 20 minutes or so...in the meantime that walker was barking here and there but he never bayed...those woods were full of hogs but he could not figure it out...

When Yeller comes out of the rice field he heads down the gravel road towards the woods...we follow behind in the truck and as soon as he hits the woods he switches gears and in less than five minutes and a half mile deep he was bayed and all the dogs went to him...it was easy for him...
The walker was a hotter nosed dog and he was a younger dog of about 18 months at that time...Yeller was around 8 years old...he didn’t get in a hurry...it is almost like he knew the walker and other dogs weren’t going to find a hog...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

Last edited by Reuben on 03-07-2019 at 10:36 AM

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Old Post 03-06-2019 12:51 AM
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Rainey
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Registered: Apr 2012
Location: Booneville MS
Posts: 21

Good one

Reuben that was a good post.

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Old Post 03-07-2019 03:33 AM
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CONRAD FRYAR
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Northwest Georgia
Posts: 1621

I have a young male now that is old blood(semen) He runs track in a flat out dead sprint, loves to be around water and in water,
I believe after watching him multiple times he does not need as much scent as most dogs need to run?
He stays by himself allot but if nothing is going and another dog or dogs strike and are running track he will come in and take lead and usually tree a minute or two ahead of them.
Also notice that he winds while walking or leading him in the woods a whole lot, never barks but if you watch him when cut he will spin and go back to that spot and go in,sometimes not treeing for 3 to 500 yds.
Does not bog on track, breaks out in big circles till he picks it up again, fairly tight on mouth till he gets it real hot, then opens a few times, you know at that point it won't be but a minute or two....lol

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Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22460

Do you have to go back to old blood to get that track? Have we bred the track out of our hounds? Are comp hunts just "treeing contests" now?

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yadkinriver
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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Yadkin County NC
Posts: 1656

Mr. Lambert can't you remember before your hair and beard was grey that track dogs were easier to find? Then again, that may be what turned it grey. lol

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Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
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Mr River, I do remember when track was a given and you looked for a dog that would tree. But that was before Rat came along. He was the answer to that "problem".

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morgan branch
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Registered: Nov 2014
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This post is a great read and a the true definition of a good dog and what a great dog is.. Also the difference between hound hunter and a real houndsman. To be great at treeing coons or baying hogs the dog must have the brains to think like their quarry. To be a great houndsman a fella needs to be able to think like his hound.

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2ol2hunt
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Some dogs know more about the prey than the hunter does, they are the best ones!

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Kler Kry
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Registered: Sep 2009
Location: Monticello, Wi
Posts: 744

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Do you have to go back to old blood to get that track? Have we bred the track out of our hounds? Are comp hunts just "treeing contests" now?



THERE NEVER HAS BEEN MANY TRACK DOGS OF THE TOP LEVEL. The best that most hunters have seen are just nice dogs.

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Old Post 03-08-2019 01:12 AM
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CONRAD FRYAR
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Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Northwest Georgia
Posts: 1621

I hate when we have discussions over such broad terms, makes a young guy wonder and search for something that may or not be there, i believe there are a couple different type of track dogs.
And they fit the terrain in which they hunt, because i promise you all Terrain ain't the same(different regions) Can each dog tree coons in every region yes, but some work better than others.
Example: My Hardwood Saul is a extremely accurate hound (Lipper/Coma breeding) I turned a coon loose on the property a couple weeks ago from a live trap before work, 2.5 hrs later i came home and turned him loose to pee(he was sleeping in my garage) and left again, 1 hr later to return to a hound treed over a 1/2 mile away with the meat. He can take a bad track and work it out.

Yadkin River Buck....Runs a totally different style- wide open head up breaking in big circles, does not want to slow down wants to run it down, extremely accurate also!

Each one trees as many as the other, different styles.
DO they smell differently? Do there brains work differently?
All i know is i am crossing the two stains and like it!

And I believe that the more tree you put in, the more track you take out! In these north Ga. mtns there are certain strains most of us stay away from like the plague....lol

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yadkintar
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Conrad the better track dog they are the less empty trees you look at. But I never had a dog that didn't miss sometimes. But if they done away with circle points and you only had plus or minus. It would get veeeeeeeeeeery inteeresting lol.


Tar

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CONRAD FRYAR
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Registered: Jan 2004
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I hope i did not imply they never miss, but i will say it does not happen often
I have noticed that dogs who love to run track are generally accurate, Dogs who are geared with heavy tree blood, Love the final outcome more than the race.
It is hard to maintain the balance and not shift to far either direction.

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Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

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PlottDawg
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Registered: Aug 2017
Location: NorthGa
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Conrad your Buck dog is one of the nicest looking walkers I've seen in a while , he looks like he should fly on a track

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CONRAD FRYAR
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Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Northwest Georgia
Posts: 1621

Thanks PlottDawg, we are enjoying him.

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Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

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Reuben
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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1903

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CONRAD FRYAR
[B]

And I believe that the more tree you put in, the more track you take out! In these north Ga. mtns there are certain strains most of us stay away from like the plague....

I believe this to be true in many different areas in nature...

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Kler Kry
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Registered: Sep 2009
Location: Monticello, Wi
Posts: 744

Fast Track Dog

Charlie Tant developed an outstanding strain of cat dogs that excelled at getting game from a running walker strain. He didn't select for dogs that treed from a strain of running walkers, but he selected dogs that had the desire to kill. He believed that dogs with the desire catch and kill their quarry would stay with it and stay treed. His dogs excelled at both track and tree.

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