Registered: Mar 2018
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I agree with some other post with the strike rule, make it 25 for all dogs. These babbling idiot dogs need to be weeded out. I always thought the dog who trees the coon first is the better dog not who lucks onto a track and barks first.

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
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quote:

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Originally posted by yadkintar
If all dogs are treed you cannot cut you are leash locked.
Tar

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The rule used to state that if one dog was treed you were leash locked but it was changed to the "option". When was that?

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Registered: Jan 2013
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As long as one dog is trailing you can cut !! But if all dogs are treed you are leash locked. Let's say your dog is treed and scored by time you pull off all other dogs are treed so you are leash locked as you are walking one dog leaves it's tree and is minused you now can cut. Been that way long as I can remember but don't know exact dates.


Tar

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Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:

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Originally posted by Dave Richards
You are talking like the dig to tree first is the true coon dog, and the rest are to slow to keep up. That's nonsense, you are right about they all can't be first strike or first tree, I certainly don't advocate that. I merely pointed out the inequity of dogs getting separate tree POINTS, but not separate strike POINTS. How is this a tryout test, a competition should be as true a test as possible. You somehow want to imply that a dog striking and treeing independently is somehow less dog. If there weren't different coons to run and tree, they would not be doing so. Slick tree get minused, tracks they don't finish get minused. A dog only get plus POINTS for doing it right, striking and treeing a coon that is seen. If separate POINTS for separate coons is given to both strike and tree, it would be fair to everyone. Dave

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Registered: Apr 2015
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Say you are playing baseball, you get up to bat and hit a homerun, next batter hits a homerun, who's homerun was the best? The RULES were made when all dogs were packing together and gave a fairly accurate indication of the best dog. Today's dogs rarely pack together, while separate tree POINTS judge each dog fairly, one set of strike POINTS does not. The argument for separate strike POINTS is just as sound as the argument for separate tree POINTS. Separate coons make separate tracks, just as they may tree in separate trees. Often we don't know the dogs are treed separate, but after we know the trees are scored accordingly, tracks could be scored the same way. The best dog should still run and tree more coons than the rest. A babbler should not have a strike advantage over an honest dog. Today's RULES favor a automatic strike dog, too many casts are lost by 25 strike POINTS.

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dave Richards
Say you are playing baseball, you get up to bat and hit a homerun, next batter hits a homerun, who's homerun was the best? The RULES were made when all dogs were packing together and gave a fairly accurate indication of the best dog. Today's dogs rarely pack together, while separate tree POINTS judge each dog fairly, one set of strike POINTS does not. The argument for separate strike POINTS is just as sound as the argument for separate tree POINTS. Separate coons make separate tracks, just as they may tree in separate trees. Often we don't know the dogs are treed separate, but after we know the trees are scored accordingly, tracks could be scored the same way. The best dog should still run and tree more coons than the rest. A babbler should not have a strike advantage over an honest dog. Today's RULES favor a automatic strike dog, too many casts are lost by 25 strike POINTS.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dave Richards
Say you are playing baseball, you get up to bat and hit a homerun, next batter hits a homerun, who's homerun was the best? The RULES were made when all dogs were packing together and gave a fairly accurate indication of the best dog. Today's dogs rarely pack together, while separate tree POINTS judge each dog fairly, one set of strike POINTS does not. The argument for separate strike POINTS is just as sound as the argument for separate tree POINTS. Separate coons make separate tracks, just as they may tree in separate trees. Often we don't know the dogs are treed separate, but after we know the trees are scored accordingly, tracks could be scored the same way. The best dog should still run and tree more coons than the rest. A babbler should not have a strike advantage over an honest dog. Today's RULES favor a automatic strike dog, too many casts are lost by 25 strike POINTS.

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Registered: Apr 2015
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You are taking liberties with my analogy, there was no mention of any base runners, only that the two batters hit home runs. Lol. I do like your style, my point as you well know was they each hit a home run, independent of each other. Dogs running and treeing 2 different coons independent of each other are merely equal in performance, regardless which one did it first. Lol. Now most of this is purely entertainment, as no real changes will result from any of our opinions, but is the system truly fair? Trees yes, tracks no, it's a one-way street. Lol. Dave

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Mr Dave, is anything in life fair? Are you saying that if it takes one dog 15 minutes to tree a coon and it takes a second dog 45 minutes to tree a coon that they are equal?

How about if one baseball player comes up to bat 4 times and hits a home run and another baseball player comes up to bat only once and hits a home run, are they equal? What if one baseball player comes up to bat 4 times and gets a hit to get on base each time and then someone else gets a hit so he scores 4 runs. Another baseball player comes up to bat 4 times and strikes out 3 times but hits a home run the fourth time. Is the home run hitter better?

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Registered: Jun 2014
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I read the entire back of the score card and the advisor and didn't see anything about home runs.

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quote:

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Originally posted by shadinc
I read the entire back of the score card and the advisor and didn't see anything about home runs.

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The Super Slams had a no grace period for babblers after the first turn out when they first started. But that was changed back after the first year. Why did UKC change it back? I guess that it didn't work.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
The Super Slams had a no grace period for babblers after the first turn out when they first started. But that was changed back after the first year. Why did UKC change it back? I guess that it didn't work.

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Registered: Aug 2004
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Tyler, I hunted in one myself. On the second drop one dog left out babbling and handler didn't strike him. When I tried to question it, the non hunting judge told me to shut up or he would scratch me. So I shut up and it cost me $800. I haven't hunted in one since.

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It's awfully hard to please a bunch of coonhunters. Lol. Maybe we are just a touch Looney after all these years of sleep deprivation, or it just might be "coon" fervor. It's not about the RULES, it's about how we play the game, with HONOR or without. Dave

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Oh my goodness, I thought that it was supposed to be all about the dogs...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Oh my goodness, I thought that it was supposed to be all about the dogs...

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Tyler, that is the way that it is supposed to be. But in reality, sometimes the best handler wins. It is really a team effort. It takes a good dog teamed up with a handler that knows his dog and knows the rules.

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Lol. Really should be about the dogs, but unfortunately, we have the handlers and it becomes a handling contest. The dogs could care less, it's us that want to win, some anyway they can. Lol. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

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Mr Dave, some dogs want to win. And some by any means. Have you never seen a dog clean a tree? Have you never seen a dog babble?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dave Richards
It's awfully hard to please a bunch of coonhunters. Lol. Maybe we are just a touch Looney after all these years of sleep deprivation, or it just might be "coon" fervor. It's not about the RULES, it's about how we play the game, with HONOR or without. Dave

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RULES should never be in conflict with HONOR, the fact some RULES are in conflict is the problem. Such RULES should be changed, definitely the equalling RULE, a warning would be sufficient. No one can argue that the RULES were designed to determine the best dog in the cast, not to find a way to scratch the winner. Dogs have certainly changed , what worked in the past seems to be not working in the present. If the hunts have any chance of becoming as big as they were in thed past, it's going to take some serious rethinking and RULE changes. IMO. Dave

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Registered: May 2012
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quote:

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Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
It is my wish to put the honor back in the rules. Rules with loop holes or those that need clarification or even just flat out done away with. Much of the time following the rules may not seem like the honorable thing to do, think of the squalling rule. How do you feel when a handler is scratched that is winning a cast with a dog looking great does that feel like the honorable thing? For most it doesn't seem to honorable for some it feels great to eliminate their competition and get that cheapened cast win if they were getting their butt kicked before.
Then go the flip side sometimes when one choses to do the honorable or what may seem like the right thing instead of following the rules as they are wrote can cause a cast to go into chaos with a chain of events that end badly for all involved.

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I realize that a couple on here have hunted as long as I have (about 45 years---yuck that makes me sound old) give or take a few years.

Honor Rules = Good, but not perfect (nothing can be). Without honor, the effectiveness of rules decline. When everyone conducts themselves honorably, you will rarely have issues.

Points System.

1970's/very early 80's. 100/100 Rules. If you drew a Northern Blue dog, you weren't likely to get a 1st strike. If you drew 2 of them, 2nd strike wasn't likely either. You had to get 1st tree, which meant you had to call quick. When you have to call quick is when you (the handler) make mistakes. When your dog located, they would cover quick and like a glove. Advantage: Quick Strike Dog/Quick Cover Dog.

Early 80's. UKC changed first tree to 125. First tree became a bigger advantage. Or, as Dave Dean said: "Just when I bred a dog to fit the rules, they changed the rules". Some of you may remember that. It became a little easier to beat the auto-strike dogs. They still covered, but you got a now 50 point difference for 1st tree. You still had to call quick because they would cover quick. You typically didn't see the auto strike dogs split treeing from the 1st tree dog. Advantage: Quick Tree Dog.

More recently/currently. With dogs bred and/or trained not to cover a 1st tree dog, and to split away and find their own tree (and get the same points), the 1st tree dog advantage disappears. And, the quick/auto strike dogs will now get by themselves (can now get 1st tree points as well as 1st strike points). It now looks like this. Advantage: Quick Strike Dog/Tree Alone Tree Dog.

A split tree dog is by definition a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th tree dog (you can't split if there if nothing to split from). A 1st tree dog that holds under pressure is not a split tree dog, it's a 1st tree dog. Quite often, the split tree dogs tend to be semi-silent or silent. That's usually an advantage because tighter mouthed dogs tend to be more efficient at showing you a coon on the outside. As a general rule, I've found that the more a dog opens on track, the less efficient they are at showing you a coon on the outside (the coon get more warning).

To me, the strike point disadvantage of the often semi-silent or silent split tree dogs is more than offset by the coon on the outside efficiency advantage these dogs have. To me, it's the 1st tree dog (with a coon) that doesn't get a fair shake. All the dogs that split from him (2nd, 3rd, 4th) get just as many tree points as he does. That doesn't seem fair.

If I (old and slow) race Usain Bolt (young and fast), I know I can't beat him straight up (he'd smoke me). But, I have a plan (based on split tree rules). I will just split away and run in a different direction. I will be 1st to my destination. Based on our split tree rules, I'm just as good as he is. Take that Usain!

In all of this, I'm talking about dogs treeing coon, not dogs treeing trees.

Last edited by honalieh on 10-25-2018 at 05:22 AM

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Registered: Apr 2014
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quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Mr Dave, some dogs want to win. And some by any means. Have you never seen a dog clean a tree? Have you never seen a dog babble?

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