Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

Went down memory lane last night on here got me to thinking. Back in the early 80's hides were high we hunted 3 hrs in the hunts we took a lot of fur and won a lot of hunts with good scores. Now you got shorter hunting times low or no scores and hides are worthless.



Don't blame the coons !!


Tar

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Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1513

Tar you are exactly right. Maybe wasnt the case everywhere but that is the way it was here in Ohio. As l remember it.

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Registered: Jan 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Posts: 589

Preaching to the Choir here.. Only reason we had hounds was to catch fur.. Competition hunts were just a diversion in the off season.. I'm getting a batch of hides ready to ship up north for the sale.. No money in it at all, but I still like it.

Lot of hunts were won in that last hour in the old days.. Consistency comes out and luck becomes less a factor when you apply 3 hours to a cast scenario.. My opinion anyways.

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Registered: Nov 2018
Location: NE Oh
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quote:

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Originally posted by yadkintar
Went down memory lane last night on here got me to thinking. Back in the early 80's hides were high we hunted 3 hrs in the hunts we took a lot of fur and won a lot of hunts with good scores. Now you got shorter hunting times low or no scores and hides are worthless.



Don't blame the coons


Tar

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Registered: Jul 2012
Location: AR
Posts: 291

quote:

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Originally posted by yadkintar
Went down memory lane last night on here got me to thinking. Back in the early 80's hides were high we hunted 3 hrs in the hunts we took a lot of fur and won a lot of hunts with good scores. Now you got shorter hunting times low or no scores and hides are worthless.



Don't blame the coons !!


Tar

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Registered: Nov 2018
Location: NE Oh
Posts: 23

quote:

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Originally posted by Larry Hall
Preaching to the Choir here.. Only reason we had hounds was to catch fur.. Competition hunts were just a diversion in the off season.. I'm getting a batch of hides ready to ship up north for the sale.. No money in it at all, but I still like it.

Lot of hunts were won in that last hour in the old days.. Consistency comes out and luck becomes less a factor when you apply 3 hours to a cast scenario.. My opinion anyways.

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Location: Marietta
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quote:

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Originally posted by Jgarrett
So what your sayin tar is you think we should let the dog with the best score have a cast win be it circle or minus?

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Registered: Sep 2007
Location: Glenmont,Ohio
Posts: 1162

I like it Tar, good old hounds with noses that sounded like hounds and could trail up a coon and have it. Every track you cane across was much needed money , could afford to pass it up or miss it. I figure today the only money in it is from winning hunts. It for sure has changed.

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Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
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Tar what your saying is correct but I equate the RESULTS of back then compared to today this way.

Back then when you hunted and trained dogs. You saw results. You harvested the results and you hung those results on the barn wall and then turned that into cash.
Dogs that didn't contribute to the number of hides on the wall or actually took away from the number of hides with their foolishness. Were Culled. Combining Culling with hunting dogs hard and you have dogs that can go to town and win.
Those dogs also had a purpose that could be measured. It was a more important thing back then to have barns with bigger walls than it was to have bigger scores on a scorecard.

Today it is all about the score card. That is fine as today a lot of things have changed from what they were about many years ago. But the fact is. The coon on the walls were tangible and could be counted. The scoring systems we have are subjective to a rule system that you can't count on to determine the hound that performs the best when it comes to treeing coon.

Only one style of dog hung those coon on the wall. The one with the coon in the trees. Coon eyes matter, but in the game we play today with our hounds. So do a lot of other things when it comes to having the highest score.

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Registered: Feb 2005
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Posts: 1739

Soooooo r u advocateing bringing back the 3 hour hunts.
I agree those CW"s were won in that last hour.
The 1st 2 hours was accumulating a bunch of minus ...then hanging on to what + one had .... Usually the handler that keep his/her mouth shut won.

Coons were worth $, back in the day.
Now CW's r worth $, not as much as 1/$45.00 hide
Figure out a way to pay for each coon that's treed in a cast and pay it out, then coon hunting would be worth it and in mho we'll see track dogs
again.
But the way it is now a P.P. pt. is only worth $100.00 or so, and then u gotta wait till April to get your chump change.
JMO

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Registered: Nov 2018
Location: NE Oh
Posts: 23

Yep.....2 separate report cards now
The amount of coon killed in a season has little value in a dogs worth today.

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

Couple questions Bruce.

1. Could a dog still be trained to be a meat dog today ?

2. If a dog was trained to compete in 3 hr hunts would he not dominate 2 hr hunts ?


Tar

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Registered: Jun 2013
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Back in the day of high fur prices there were a lot of substandard dogs and good lights. I know this doesn’t have anything to do with the competition hunts but around here there were a lot of spotlighters that just used a dog to be legal.

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quote:

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Originally posted by 2nd Mac
Back in the day of high fur prices there were a lot of substandard dogs and good lights. I know this doesn’t have anything to do with the competition hunts but around here there were a lot of spotlighters that just used a dog to be legal.

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Location: Palatka, FL
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Questions
1. Could a dog still be trained to be a meat dog today?
I think many are and that is really dependent on the mans standards. Men with higher standards don't need a barn wall or a score card to determine if they have a Coon Hound on the end of their leash. Times change, our dogs genetics have changed. Dogs correct behavior and mistakes along with having a coon or not having a coon hasn't changed. Grand pa either had a coon or he didn't. Tonight, the dogs will either have a coon or they won't. Grand pa didn't make any excuses for the dogs that didn't have a coon. I won't either tonight. Tar if you remember, many of the meat hunters enjoyed the more silent type hound because they seemed to get it done quicker. So a guy that is a meat hunter might hunt a different style dog than the one that enjoys some good trailing that turns into a good race. He also had a light that shined a lot of trees around the area he was hunting to add to the number of coons on the wall.

#2 If a dog was trained to compete in 3 hr hunts would he not dominate 2 hour hunts
I don't think dogs know the difference in 2 hours or 3 hours. The only difference for them is physical conditioning. With the comp hounds of yesterday you had them packing and one maybe doing the best on one coon and another doing the best on another coon. They all were generally getting points off the same coon. Just that the winner was picked on how quick they did things or how quick they were called. Today it is about getting points on your own coon. It is also important not to loose points you have earned. We could have a lot of minus in a 3 hour hunt today. One big difference today that other KC's have brought to the table is. Casting the dogs and hunting the hunt off one turnout. In the old days we would tree a coon. Call timeout and move. Tree another hot coon and call time out and move. Tree another hot coon and move again. Lots of plus points off them hot coon with few minus. Big scores made some think the dogs were better. When actually the game was just played differently.

Lots of things from the past are part of my now and forever. But there is no way I want much to do with the past but remember it. What counts in my life and my dogs life is what is done tonight during the chase of a coon. Past poor performances give me something to look for and improve upon. But positive results keep the dog living at my place. If the dog knew my plans for his wrong doings when I cut one loose. They would be to nervous to hunt. All dogs do wrong. If not corrected, I can only blame myself. If not correctable, then I blame the dog and move on.

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Last edited by Bruce m. Conkey on 02-18-2019 at 04:20 PM

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quote:

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Originally posted by yadkintar
Yep delray it happened !! But even with that how many dead cast do you remember ?



Tar

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Bruce I don't like a silent dog but a meat dog when struck should be barking at the scent of the intended game hunted.


Back in the day the first three minutes were to let the dog get over the excitement of the first turnout after that if he barked three times and he was only 3 ft in front of you it was hard to deny he was full of it and you got minused. Now it's a minute every drop of non stop barking that usually pushes them past coons the meat dog would tree. Yes our rules are not set up for a meat dog unless he is really lucky and deaf or both lol.


Tar

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Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
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Tar you will get no argument from me that a lot of dogs bark to much on the ground where there is no track. But I do not feel it as prevalent as several would want people to think. I am also confused why the negatives of the competitors are the main topic all the time. Other dogs faults only give an honest dog a better chance to win. Be Thankful for them. If my dog can't beat a dog that I feel has a lot of faults. It makes me wonder about what I have on the end of my leash.

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Last edited by Bruce m. Conkey on 02-18-2019 at 05:00 PM

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Not just that one but a lot of dogs faults fit the loopholes in the rules but a true meat dog that is indifferent to what the other dogs in the cast are doing should prevail and win the cast now here is a whopper !


Do you think dogs are being trained to fit the rules or to be meat dogs treeing the first coon they come near no matter what ?


Tar

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Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
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The babbling and going miles on the dead run are not as much a trained factor as a genetic change over the years. Just like you use to be able to hunt 4 dogs and be able to cover them with a blanket all night. Genetics changed most of them to go their own ways and people saw them winning and Attemped to train them that way. Genetics always ends up winning over training just because the majority of dogs just have average trainers.

The rules should favor a coon treeing dog and their genetics should produce one so not much training there. Just take them. On the other hand the stuff thats get you minused like trash and going back to trees. Is trained out of them. I focus my training on what might get one minus points while I let their natural ability get them plus points.

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Registered: Apr 2015
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Let me tell you a story, back years ago I loved to run beagles both gun hunting and field trails. The field trails were judged by how close to the track a dog was running, had several judges spread out over the course. The digs winning these trials were slow track stradlers and could not push a rabbit fast enough for one to shoot. Some of us were so disgusted by such dogs winning these trials, that we started the gun dog field trials. Gun dog field trials were designed to find the best rabbit dogs, not slow track straddling dogs that could not put meat on the table. Coon dog trials have become pretty much the same as the beagle field trials, most dogs winning these Hunts would fail as winter hide producing dogs we are not bettering the breeds or producing game catching dogs with these types of hunts. Hunts set up to catch game would actually improve our dogs, but in today's climate of anti hunting, kill hunts would never gain wide enough approval to become effective in reversing this trend. Sadly, today's hunts are producing ineffective winter time hide producing dogs. Younger hunters today are not concerned with filling the barn with hides, anyway the hides are worthless. My concern is that when the older hunters and breeders are gone, so goes the breeding of the old barn filling type of dogs, the genetics may be lost forever. Dave

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Registered: Nov 2015
Location: st. augustine Fl
Posts: 311

I didn't hunt much in the 80s but I did early 90s we've always had a pretty good coon population and quite a few runner's . I've never had no world beater but some decent dog's . My thing is if I cut loose chances are good I'll pull my dog off a tree in somebody's yard. Subdivisions everywhere and we are steadily losing land . Hides weren't worth much that I remember for coons and really was better money to go tote wood for a construction company back then . I see a lot of guy's say if my dog won't go a mile I won't keep him . And I know some places have thin coon . But if my dog can't tree one in a half a mile we going to the wood shed to get right or it's getting culled . I won't walk past a coon to tree a coon . But I also hunt off moon tides and phases and can give myself a 2 hour window when coons are moving . As far as the hunts I enjoy them but too much money involved in most and I think shouldn't nobody win unless they got a coon . I mean after all that what we're hunting coons not den tree's .

I call my dog like I see it I don't circle nothing if I can't see them eye's it's slick .

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

With hides worthless coons should be over populated but not the case if not controlled nature is worse on them she gets higher numbers than we do. That's why back in the day no matter how many we took we always had plenty for the hunts.



Tar

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Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 5630

You are correct, we still kill quiet a lot of coons and can not see any difference in the coon population. No sick coons here in these mountains and the population is probably increasing. Hunting actually improves the numbers and keeps the population healthily. Dave

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Registered: Oct 2010
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Allways having a hunt won in the 3 hour days at the club and someone comes in with 5 min left with 50 more plus, , Our coon hides have never been worth more than $15 down here but when I was a kid we skinned em all coons and opossums they would bring $3.50 each we could sell coon meat to a barbeque quy and make around $100 a week off hides and meat .

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