Registered: Jan 2012
Location: Randolph, AL
Posts: 80

Rule 4 (g) states:

(g) When a dog that is declared treed leaves that tree
the dogs tree points are minused. If dog returns to
tree within the three minutes, he will receive the
next available position on tree, unless all dogs have
been declared treed. After two minutes of the first
dog being declared treed, the only tree position
available is 25.

My question is: What is the determining factor that confirms the dog left the tree? Is it when he barks in a different location? Is it if the 2 minute rule catches him? Or ??

Would the determining factor be different if you could see the dog that was declared treed versus not being able to see him? Meaning if you watched a dog leave the tree and go say 50 yards away then come back and start back treeing but the dog never opened while gone from tree. Would he be minused for leaving even though he never opened off the tree? Because if you were far enough away that you could not see the dog go away from the tree, the 2 would have been started, then broke once he began treeing again with no one knowing the dog actually left from the tree.

If it should be treated differently, then how far off the tree do you have to see the dog go before you can say he left?

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22462

That is easy. Did he leave the tree? The rule says if a dog leaves the tree, he gets minused. It is pretty common sense. If you can't see him then you have to go by his barking but if you can see him then it is pretty obvious.

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Registered: Jan 2012
Location: Randolph, AL
Posts: 80

Oh my goodness! Common sense? Why is it handled differently? You can always "see" him on the garmin, so how far does he have to go to be considered "left the tree"? One step? 10 feet? 10 yards? How far?

Last edited by Tillery on 10-13-2020 at 02:23 AM

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Registered: Jul 2015
Location: mo
Posts: 749

If I'm judging when one dog is treed and shuts up we start the 2. And listen to see if he opens treed in the same spot or if it moved. Multiple dogs treed unless it barks off or comes to you or it's wearing lights all over it so you can see it in the dark. Dog is considered still there. One dog must bark at least every 2 min. Not all Dogs. Once all dogs are declared treed or the three is up you are at the tree. Dog is either treed or not.
Telemetry rules states you can not score off a Garmin. So if the judge ask if you're dog moved doesn't matter what you tell em.
Would love to hear from Ukc on this one if I'm doing it wrong.
Although the way the night's going my dog might not make another tree for me to worry about. Lol

Last edited by nextcoonhunters on 10-13-2020 at 02:55 AM

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

quote:

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Originally posted by Tillery
Oh my goodness! Common sense? Why is it handled differently? You can always "see" him on the garmin, so how far does he have to go to be considered "left the tree"? One step? 10 feet? 10 yards? How far?

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Registered: Jan 2017
Location: Miami, Ok
Posts: 384

Here's how I judge this situation. I leave my light off, start the two. If there is a dog obviously walking or moving around I still leave it off. Reason being is think on the flip side of this question. If a dog is showing treed, you see him from say 75 yards BUT the two is working do you run in there and handle him? No you make him bark. I'm the same way with this situation. You cant minus a dog if it's off IMO unless its barking or you are actually handling dogs at the tree and its off a great distance. Gotta use that common sense and its a judgement call.

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Registered: Jan 2012
Location: Randolph, AL
Posts: 80

quote:

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Originally posted by Rip
You can not use a Garmin to score that's why he said it was an easy question.

If you see him leave then he left.

If you hear him bark away from the tree he left.

If the 2 catches him he left.

The Garmin never comes into play

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22462

Oh my goodness, I am sorry if I didn't give you the answer that you were looking for.

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Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 2072

Just like the 8 minutes on track it is that dogs 2 minutes. I don't think it matters how far he travels off the tree as long as he doesn't bark somewhere else and he is back in less than 2 minutes.

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Registered: Jul 2012
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 394

Don't look at me for the answer. I minused mine one night because I THOUGHT he left. Turns out, he was on other side in a creek bed. But, he did sound like he was in a different spot. In hind sight, it took a leash to move him once he treed and I should have had more confidence in him. Still won and the points I lost wouldn't have enabled me to place higher.

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22462

Tyler, are you actually saying that even if a dog "leaves the tree", as long as it isn't barking, it hasn't "left the tree"?

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Registered: Jan 2017
Location: Miami, Ok
Posts: 384

quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Tyler, are you actually saying that even if a dog "leaves the tree", as long as it isn't barking, it hasn't "left the tree"?

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22462

The rule says, "leaves the tree". It doesn't say "leaves the tree and barks". It doesn't say, "leaves the tree but goes back to the tree without barking while off the tree".

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Registered: Jul 2004
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 2765

quote:

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Originally posted by Rip


If you see him leave then he left.

If you hear him bark away from the tree he left.

If the 2 catches him he left.

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22462

Rip is not as condescending or arrogant as I am.

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Registered: Jan 2012
Location: Randolph, AL
Posts: 80

Condescending and arrogant or not, saying if he's seen off the tree or if he leaves the tree doesn't answer my question.

I completely agree with y'all that if the dog is seen leaving the tree or is seen off the tree then by the rule he should be minused. My question is and has been, HOW FAR do you have to see him go before you can minus him?

Rule 11 Scoring Dogs
(b) After Arriving at Tree. After three (3) minutes,
first dog’s tree may be scored. Dog should not
be minused tree points if he comes back a short
distance to meet handler if dog goes back in and
trees satisfactorily. Dogs at tree must be leashed.
Eight minutes of hunting time may be used to shine
trees. Individual holding first tree shall be granted
first two minutes to shine alone, if requested.

So, we know it is ok for the dog to "leave the tree" in this scenario, but we aren't clear on an actual distance which means it should be a judgement call by judge during the hunt which seems sensible to me.

It seems to me that we all agree that if you can't see the dog then you must rely on the 2 minute rule and/or hearing him bark to know if he moved or not. But when you watch a dog that is declared treed get down and make a circle around the tree and then go back to treeing, how far can he go away from the tree during this circle?? I realize that the answer won't necessarily be a definitive distance I just want your opinions on it,

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Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 2072

If you can see them dogs shut your eyes. Turn your back to them. Your not scoring them yet with nothing but your ears.

We just had a similar question asked about scoring a dog that didn't get handled at a tree after the judge said handle your dogs and the dog left and he didn't get minused and in that case he was seen on the tree. Different situation same results.

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Registered: Jul 2015
Location: mo
Posts: 749

Most say if it's nose is on the ground it's considered tracking not treeing. Don't know if that's ukc terms or just an old Trick to minus ya. Then I've seen others try to minus ya if at least one of its feet ain't touching the tree. So? But also To add to your question, if dog comes off to meet you how long does it have to go back and tree to satisfy the judge. If more than one dog is treed you can't start the 2 on it. So how long does it have to start treeing again?

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Registered: May 2010
Location:
Posts: 1791

Judgement call is what you’re asking here . You will get different answer from different judges . Dog can meet you a short distance and return to the tree and tree satisfaction to the judge . The judge should watch the dog to see if it returns to the tree or is it showing it’s still tracking . Short distance but it’s a judgment call. That would vary on the judge and what he thinks the dog is doing , meeting you or still tracking ? He has to go back and show tree .

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Registered: May 2010
Location:
Posts: 1791

I would always tell a handler that would tell me that his dog would meet him , I would say that’s fine but as long as it meets us and not coming into the tree from the back side of a tree . That’s not meeting us . Meeting us would be between us & the tree . Not coming in from back of a tree cause to me he’s then just coming in . Again it’s up to the judge to make a call at the point he sees the dog before arriving to the tree if he thinks a dog is meeting the cast or not .

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Last edited by Charles Pullen on 10-21-2020 at 03:41 AM

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Registered: Jun 2014
Location: missouri
Posts: 1141

There is no distance listed . If there was we would have to add a tape measure to our already duck lanyards full of stop watches .
Its all Up to the man carrying the card. If anyone disagrees with the judges judgement call on the distance, take a vote and score it and move on. If you are not satisfied with the
outcome you retain the right to place a question mark (?) on the card and present the question to the MOH/panel.

If its your dog and you dont like that happening and are getting minused all the time just fix the problem ( its an easy fix ) and you wont have any future controversy .

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Registered: Jan 2017
Location: Miami, Ok
Posts: 384

quote:

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Originally posted by pamjohnson
If you can see them dogs shut your eyes. Turn your back to them. Your not scoring them yet with nothing but your ears.

We just had a similar question asked about scoring a dog that didn't get handled at a tree after the judge said handle your dogs and the dog left and he didn't get minused and in that case he was seen on the tree. Different situation same results.

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It's all about preventative judging and situational handling that keeps you out of trouble.
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Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 2072

quote:

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Originally posted by TylerOSU
I like this! A point you have to look at. If you dog is say 10 yards from the tree and the you SEE him up on the tree but not barking and he doesn't get treed in or handled there are you going to minus his strike if a coon is seen? I didn't think so...

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

quote:

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Originally posted by Tillery
The original post didn't mention the Garmin, I know you can't score by the Garmin but if it's your dog and you are watching your Garmin, how far does he have to go for you to think he left?

I was basically asking for opinions of how far a dog had to go to be considered "left the tree". The response of "That is easy. Did he leave the tree?" doesn't answer or even provide an opinion on how far a dog has to go. It only portrays arrogance with a condescending tone which was unnecessary and inappropriate in this instance.

As to your response of "If you see him leave then he left.", how far does he need to go to have left?

I understand each situation can be different and a certain amount of "judgement" and "common sense" is necessary to fairly score this situation sometimes. I was asking for other opinions or points of view as to how far off the tree a dog had to go to be considered gone from the tree.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tillery
The original post didn't mention the Garmin, I know you can't score by the Garmin but if it's your dog and you are watching your Garmin, how far does he have to go for you to think he left?

I was basically asking for opinions of how far a dog had to go to be considered "left the tree". The response of "That is easy. Did he leave the tree?" doesn't answer or even provide an opinion on how far a dog has to go. It only portrays arrogance with a condescending tone which was unnecessary and inappropriate in this instance.

As to your response of "If you see him leave then he left.", how far does he need to go to have left?

I understand each situation can be different and a certain amount of "judgement" and "common sense" is necessary to fairly score this situation sometimes. I was asking for other opinions or points of view as to how far off the tree a dog had to go to be considered gone from the tree.

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