Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

Every since I was a kid I might find an old fan or heater ect in somebody's trash take it apart try see what made it work , fix it and try to make it work better. Me and several of my older freinds on here do the same thing with dogs pedigrees that's 85% of our conversations. Is this a lost art that the younger hunters do not enjoy just blindly buying a pup or dog and throwing caution to the wind without understanding what the traits and heritage behind them ? I find old pedigrees interesting I always have.


Ps: I would like to see. Once a month ukc put any dog thats in the current top reproducer list pedigree on the main page ( any breed ) and let people discuss what they think made that dog reproduce we all would bennifit from these discussions.



Tar

Last edited by yadkintar on 07-11-2018 at 01:27 PM

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Registered: Jun 2018
Location: Conroe, TX
Posts: 23

I'm fairly new to coonhounds. I got involved in the sport in 2006 out of necessity not because I wanted to. I was raised on big game hounds since I was just a boy in the 80s though. We had some awsome hounds. We didn't study papers we studied traits. We bread the very best males to the very best females and geuss what. It works. Some times you'll get a pup that is 5 gen all grand and it's a dud. Some people will still keep that dog around as use it as a brood bitch even if it never would leave there feet. No way to make good hounds in my opinion.

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

Hunting a dog and gaining titles is just to make you feel better the second a puppy breaths is first breath it has the genetics of how it's going to reproduce often time completely opposite of its self jmo.




Tar

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Registered: Jun 2018
Location: Conroe, TX
Posts: 23

If there is a way to produce better hounds by studying their pedagree I would love to learn how to do it. I'm all about knowing how to better the hounds

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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

quote:

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Originally posted by yadkintar
Hunting a dog and gaining titles is just to make you feel better the second a puppy breaths is first breath it has the genetics of how it's going to reproduce often time completely opposite of its self jmo.




Tar

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AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

I have the stock of these dogs for 5 generations not no better than anybody else's they are both sleeping in the dog houses they were born in everytime I hunt them I see traits and similarities in them I seen in past generations. Often I would hunt with somebodys dog in a hunt I didn't know and I would see a trait from the past that ole bell ringer had and it was a dominate trait he through I would ask them the breeding of their dog and sure enough ole bell ringer was 3 or 4 genrations back.



Tar

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22462

Maybe what Mr Tar is saying is that he studies the dogs in the pedigree. Anyone can look at a piece of paper. And a whole lot of people can memorize the dog's names on that piece of paper. But you have to "study" or learn the dog's traits on that piece of paper, how they acted and what they reproduced to know what that piece of paper means. And you have to learn/know their real traits in the woods, not what their owners say on the interweb.

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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

Its prolly a moot point anyway because 90 % of the pup buying population is never gonna hunt with the parents anyway, they prolly dont even know the traits. So in that case, the dogs pedigree is as good as anything else.

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PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Yadkin County NC
Posts: 1657

Richard you have hit the nail on the head. You need to study the pedigrees and the traits of the dogs in the pedigrees. Even if they are littermates you had better study the traits. By staying basicly in a family and keeping up with the dogs by what you see instead of what you hear it's not that difficult.
However I have a family of beagles that has a trait that so far I can't get rid of. These are bred for the gun hunter, not the field trialer. Upper gear, don't care for deer (majority), and a little loose on track. Just the way I like. However between three and six months old they are meaner than pit bulls. They eat together, sleep together and do fine, but they can't play together. I have bred the least aggressive to the least aggressive but don't seem to help. When a fight starts it's a battle royal. Guess it just shows you can increase your chances but it's still trial and error.

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
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Very few people can or have hunted with grandparents, great grandparents and great great grandparents in a dog's pedigree. So you must have a network of friends whose judgement you trust to help you study a dog's pedigree.

If you are just breeding for comp dogs, then you can look at titles on the papers. But then you have to look at how, where and who obtained the titles. You have to "study" the titles.

And then there are the families in a dog's pedigree. You have to look at the brothers, sisters, aunts and uncles of the dogs in a pedigree to see if they were a "one hit wonder" or if they came from a whole family of dogs with the traits that you are looking for.

It can take years to "study" just one dog's pedigree. Most young people don't have the time or want to put forth that much effort. But that was just as true in the past. I bet that Mr Tar didn't sit around and study pedigrees when he was young. It is much easier to just breed a good female to a good male and hope for the best. You can get a good pup but your odds are
greatly decreased. Or you can buy a pup from some old guy like Mr Tar who has taken the time to study the pedigrees.

Last edited by Richard Lambert on 07-11-2018 at 04:15 PM

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Michigan
Posts: 6539

Those that have researched canine breeding say a pedigree alone is only a predictor 6-10% of the time.

Hmmm those numbers look mighty familiar.

Richard is right family and ancestor knowledge will get you further.

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Registered: Jun 2018
Location: Conroe, TX
Posts: 23

It can take years to "study" just one dog's pedigree. Most young people don't have the time or want to put forth that much effort. But that was just as true in the past. I bet that Mr Tar didn't sit around and study pedigrees when he was young. It is much easier to just breed a good female to a good male and hope for the best. You can get a good pup but your odds are
greatly decreased. Or you can buy a pup from some old guy like Mr Tar who has taken the time to study the pedigrees. [/B][/QUOTE]

I would love to learn how to study peds but there's not enough folks out there now adays who are just as anxious to teach. We need you knowledgable folks to pass on what you have learned

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

First you have to find a strain that suits you then you have to realize that a lot of the guys responsible are not on this board and don't make a lot of the hunts but if you are sincere and willing to learn I have never bean refused when I asked Sombody about the traits of their line of dogs and for advice and to tell you the truth the line I have now I have paid very few stud fees and bought very few pups a lot is the way you approach a person everybody wants their dogs in the right hands.



Tar

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Registered: Jun 2018
Location: Conroe, TX
Posts: 23

quote:

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Originally posted by yadkintar
First you have to find a strain that suits you then you have to realize that a lot of the guys responsible are not on this board and don't make a lot of the hunts but if you are sincere and willing to learn I have never bean refused when I asked Sombody about the traits of their line of dogs and for advice and to tell you the truth the line I have now I have paid very few stud fees and bought very few pups a lot is the way you approach a person everybody wants their dogs in the right hands.



Tar

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

I hunt walkers but I been watching the English pretty close that awesome dog is reproducing.



Tar

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Registered: Dec 2013
Location:
Posts: 1514

under grace do you happen to know bill riddle or dee wilkerson of conroe?

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Registered: Jun 2018
Location: Conroe, TX
Posts: 23

No sir. Just moved here from Indiana not to long ago. Dont know anyone yet.

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Registered: Dec 2013
Location:
Posts: 1514

They would be good people to get hooked up with.

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Registered: May 2008
Location: lenoir nc
Posts: 307

Tar great suggestion I would sign up for class!

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

This is not a joke I am being serious I would like to see them start with the red dogs for one nobody but those breeders would know the history behind them be less he said she said if that makes sense and I see the red dogs starting to show up in the winners circle more and more it peaks my interest I think I would enjoy it.



Tar

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Registered: May 2008
Location: lenoir nc
Posts: 307

Im with you I hunt Black n Tans and I know the history of the line of dogs I hunt but I would love to know more about the full history of the breed. As said excellent idea!

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Registered: Aug 2008
Location: SE Ohio, Glouster
Posts: 2244

I would like to see UKC take this pedigree (at least) one step farther. At the time of mating I would like to have the owners of the sire and dam, check boxes for areas such as;

Hunting-slow-medium-fast
Nose-Cold-medium-hot
Strike ability-low-medium-high
trash problems-low-medium-high
Tree barking speed-low 24/40, medium40/80, high 80/120
Open trailing, Low-medium-high
Quickness to locate-low-medium-high
Accuracy-Low 40%-medium60%-high 80% and above
Mouth-poor-medium-excellent
confirmation-poor-medium-excellent

With these traits at least documented by someone, may make it easier down the road to match strength to strength, strength to weakness, and weakness to strength. That may help to build a dog that best suits the needs and desires of someone wanting to breed a dog to their liking.

Just a thought, that I KNOW can be improved upon. But it would be a starting point.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Kalamazoo, Mich.
Posts: 6113

quote:

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Originally posted by Rocketman55
I would like to see UKC take this pedigree (at least) one step farther. At the time of mating I would like to have the owners of the sire and dam, check boxes for areas such as;

Hunting-slow-medium-fast
Nose-Cold-medium-hot
Strike ability-low-medium-high
trash problems-low-medium-high
Tree barking speed-low 24/40, medium40/80, high 80/120
Open trailing, Low-medium-high
Quickness to locate-low-medium-high
Accuracy-Low 40%-medium60%-high 80% and above
Mouth-poor-medium-excellent
confirmation-poor-medium-excellent

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22462

That is a great idea. Just ask the owner what his stud dog is like. Can you imagine what Timothy Ball would put down? Just read the owners stud dog ads. You could also put one of those "who should I breed her to posts on the interweb". There is no easy way or quick fix. You can't wait until your female comes into heat to start looking for a stud.
It takes a lot of time and effort. And no one else is going to do it for you. Everyone has their own bias. It would be like asking someone who you should vote for. Breeding is kinda like voting. There is a lot of good information and a lot of misinformation or "fake news" out there. You have to sort through it all and make your best informed decision. You must first decide what traits that you are looking for; find a stud that has and is reproducing those traits and then go for it. Or just pick any stud that seems to be winning and hope. It all depends on how much time and effort you are willing to put into it. For the pup buyers, you might try asking the dam owner why he bred her to the pup's sire.

Last edited by Richard Lambert on 07-12-2018 at 03:54 PM

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22462

quote:

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Originally posted by yadkintar
This is not a joke I am being serious
Tar

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Oh my goodness, you said all of your posts were a joke on another thread. Now I don't know what to believe.

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