Registered: Nov 2014
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 119

I’ve been seeing more and more of these “automatic” (babbling) dogs being promoted. When you watch a play by play or live coverage, it’s pretty obvious to most what is taking place there. I haven’t hunted all over the country like some but when the dog is struck off the lead and treed 1.5 miles in there, a spade is a spade and the dog was babbling… granted, some exceptional situations now and then.

To the point, When did this trend go from being corrected to now being encouraged? I fully understand the advantage on the scorecard, and many of these dogs I’m speaking of do a lot of winning. Seems to me like this has gone from being a fault in a dog to now being something to brag about..

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Ryan Morris

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quote:

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Originally posted by ClayBottom11

To the point, When did this trend go from being corrected to now being encouraged?

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Why blame the rules......weak judging is y this xist and tolerated.
The rules r just fine

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Registered: Oct 2004
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It’s a fault that provides an advantage within the scoring structure currently in place.

Competition hunts aren’t designed exclusively to reward the dog that trees the most coons in a certain amount of time. The rules are designed to reward dogs that tree coons a certain way (striking quick, treeing quick, staying out and being accurate). And as long as dogs are rewarded for barking instead of striking, there will be folks that breed and promote dogs with that fault.

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Registered: Nov 2014
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 119

I agree that weak judging is a big part of the issue. Whether judges don’t want the confrontation of giving a minus, or, if sometimes it’s hard to prove.. I think that’s a big part of it.

Same with the scoring structure.. there’s no doubt that the quicker you get it done, the better off you’re going to be..

Personally, I’d like to see more accountability for a strike on the babble and that starts with the judge. Getting treed when nothing is there has it’s penalty and so does striking when nothing is there.

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Ryan Morris

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Hunting a dog that babbles should be against the rules. That is the only way to stop it. Hunting a dog that babbles is "gaining an unfair advantage". Handlers are either taking advantage of the rules or outright cheating depending on how you view it.
If you really want to stop it, scratch a dog for babbling. If they are scratched for babbling 3 times, bar them from entering a hunt for a year.
Or if you are really serious about it bar the handler if he/she enters a babbling dog in a hunt. After all the handler is attempting to cheat.

Now there is the solution. How serious are y'all?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Hunting a dog that babbles should be against the rules. That is the only way to stop it. Hunting a dog that babbles is "gaining an unfair advantage". Handlers are either taking advantage of the rules or outright cheating depending on how you view it.
If you really want to stop it, scratch a dog for babbling. If they are scratched for babbling 3 times, bar them from entering a hunt for a year.
Or if you are really serious about it bar the handler if he/she enters a babbling dog in a hunt. After all the handler is attempting to cheat.

Now there is the solution. How serious are y'all?

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Last edited by Dogwhisper on 01-16-2023 at 08:41 AM

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Problem I see here - if it’s too hard to enforce/prove to minus.. I don’t think it’d ever go as far as being a barring infraction.. lol.

Even if judges would start minusing only the most obvious situations, it would be a good start.

On the local level.. when you’re drawing casts and start asking for a judge, half the casts stare at the floor waiting for somebody else to take the card. There’s no abundance of willing, experienced judges from what I’ve seen. That being said, the one who does take the card in that situation certainly isn’t going to ruffle anybody’s feathers with a call like that.

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I know what I'm bout to say will get all tore apart but the real problem is money anywhere there is money there is a way to take it from people . Striking a babble mouthed dog is no diffrent than putting weights in fish. Money makes folks do alot of things. People used to take pride in an honest strike dog that knew how to get its mouth open and move a track . The win at all cost hints have made it the way it is . The fact of competing honeslty in a cast of good hounds and Handlers and winning a cast where there were more than 3 casts at the club used to mean something.i have had folks say if trophy were all they gained they would quit all together. I know they are dust collectors but the part of competing and winning and gunting a all around honest dog ,I'll just keep the trophies and wipe the dust . No money is worth cheating a stranger or friend. Of my dog can't honestly beat yours IL shake your hand and try to beat you next time .

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Registered: Dec 2003
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Change the strike to where it isn’t an advantage which would solve all this immediately…..but it’ll never happen and big money is the reason. Over aggressive judges are just as bad as weak judges too. I’ve encountered judges that are looking for opportunities to minus a dog for this from the beginning to give them or their buddy an advantage. Just take the strike out of it or make it the same.

Make all strike points 25…you must strike before treeing in case a dog quits and comes in.

How many casts have you been on that when you cut, the dogs go different directions and tree separate coons, but one dog gets 100 strike while the other gets less. In my opinion, the dog should move up in strike points too because it is obviously a different track.

Either way, make it 25 across the board and count coons and who trees them the fastest. Then the dogs can bark all they want to, but no denying who finishes the track first.

Just my opinion.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tim Green


Make all strike points 25…you must strike before treeing in case a dog quits and comes in.

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Last edited by ClayBottom11 on 01-15-2023 at 11:40 AM

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Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:

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Originally posted by Dogwhisper
Why blame the rules......weak judging is y this xist and tolerated.
The rules r just fine

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Registered: May 2019
Location: Ohio
Posts: 44

I was on a 4 dog cast last month and after we cut them loose, we stood in silence for a few minutes. What a great experience! Those with auto strike dogs know what they have and like it. It is a very easy thing to fix. Some do NOT want to fix it. A good "me too"auto strike dog is a hard thing to beat under the current rules. It is impossible to prove, so just try to beat them fair and square. Nothing beats the handshakes and complements after an honest cast win.

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Registered: Jun 2018
Location: Lafayette Georgia
Posts: 179

U know it is not a dog barking 3 or 4 times they"re talking about

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Registered: Aug 2006
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Do what Tim Green said , Also if a dog Comes walking up or Quits a track Minus it for 100.... I been saying for years GIVE THAT SPLIT DOG HIS STRIKE POINTS TOO ... If nothing else is done at the minimum STRIKE THEM ALL THE SAME....EVERYON KNOWS WHAT THEYRE HUNTING These podcast show it too sad thing is some of todays coon hunters dont know the difference in an honest strike dog or babbling dog....No one wants to start controversary But like some said Most Handlers know what they handling striking a babbling dog is nothing less than stealing from your co workers, hunting Buddies or your neighbor If I had anything worth hauling to A big hunt I probably be deemed A TROUBLE MAKER and Barred cause I call you out on em... Every drop, IS WHAT IT IS

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Registered: Jan 2004
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If a dog barks the entire time it is loose it is impossible to minus under the current rule set in nearly every organization.

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Registered: Feb 2012
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Worry about your own dog. If you can't win ask yourself why? Again then Worry about your own dog. Maybe the rules need changed. Until then quit breaking them to babble or better yet teach them to babble either way u guessed it Worry about your own dog.

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Registered: Sep 2009
Location: Monticello, Wi
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I hate a babbler and I love an Outstanding Track dog and the majority of the Judges and hunters can't tell the difference. When I was competition hunting Penney I would all most always take second strike when Penney should have had first strike. Especially in the other registry. It is easier to over come loosing 25 points on strike than it is over coming -100 when a hunting judge gives minus points to the best dog in the cast so they can win, because that is the only way that they can win.

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Registered: Nov 2014
Location: Central Virginia
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quote:

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Originally posted by Josh Michaelis
If a dog barks the entire time it is loose it is impossible to minus under the current rule set in nearly every organization.

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Ryan Morris

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quote:

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Originally posted by ClayBottom11
Problem I see here - if it’s too hard to enforce/prove to minus.. I don’t think it’d ever go as far as being a barring infraction.. lol.

Even if judges would start minusing only the most obvious situations, it would be a good start.

On the local level.. when you’re drawing casts and start asking for a judge, half the casts stare at the floor waiting for somebody else to take the card. There’s no abundance of willing, experienced judges from what I’ve seen. That being said, the one who does take the card in that situation certainly isn’t going to ruffle anybody’s feathers with a call like that.

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Last edited by honalieh on 01-16-2023 at 02:52 AM

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Honalieh
Great post. It would sure turn things upside down to quit giving them split but last tree dogs them extra points. It would rub some the wrong way just reading such a thing.
It would bring a little unity back to coon hunting. As it is hunting alone and having a dog that is always alone is important to win.although I don't feel it has done our sport of coon hunting any favors in the growth of the sport.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ClayBottom11
If a dog barks the entire time it’s loose, I don’t want it. .

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Registered: Nov 2014
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quote:

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Originally posted by Josh Michaelis
Nobody is forcing you too. There are a few out there, but all you have to do to beat one like that is tree one more coon than it does.

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Ryan Morris

Last edited by ClayBottom11 on 01-17-2023 at 06:12 PM

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Missouri
Posts: 335

"I fully understand the advantage on the scorecard, and many of these dogs I’m speaking of do a lot of winning. "

I think you answered your own question..........winning isn't about who has the best dog, Winning=Money. Winning gets you pup sales and stud fees. Winning gets you on podcast and picture on magazine covers. So,,,,the folks that want to win do whatever is necessary to win. Silent dogs, babbling dogs, mean dogs, junk runners that fall treed, slick treeing, me-to dogs, and straight line hunters are all out there being promoted by somebody that just wants to win.

You'll never put integrity and honor in the hunts by changing how you score a dog.

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Registered: Feb 2007
Location: Pomeroy, Ohio
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In my opinion, AKC had the answer to the babbling rules but none of the other kennel companies wanted to copy them.

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