Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 2064

Why do we have cast? I have asked myself this very question so many times .
I'm very certain that the way the rules are set up has set our hounds genetic progress back. There is way to much handler influence involved in the training for the hunts. The very hunts that was originally supposed to bring the best genetics to the top. I mean that was what the hunts was originally supposed to do right? It's not about who's the best trainer. Who is the best handler.
The way the rules are set up has very little to do with the better dog and way to much to do with the best handler and best trainer for the rules that are in place.
Rules are like laws. Less is more.

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Registered: Jan 2016
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quote:

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Originally posted by pamjohnson
Why do we have cast? I have asked myself this very question so many times .
I'm very certain that the way the rules are set up has set our hounds genetic progress back. There is way to much handler influence involved in the training for the hunts. The very hunts that was originally supposed to bring the best genetics to the top. I mean that was what the hunts was originally supposed to do right? It's not about who's the best trainer. Who is the best handler.
The way the rules are set up has very little to do with the better dog and way to much to do with the best handler and best trainer for the rules that are in place.
Rules are like laws. Less is more.

---

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Dan

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Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 5709

quote:

---

Originally posted by pamjohnson
Why do we have cast? I have asked myself this very question so many times .
I'm very certain that the way the rules are set up has set our hounds genetic progress back. There is way to much handler influence involved in the training for the hunts. The very hunts that was originally supposed to bring the best genetics to the top. I mean that was what the hunts was originally supposed to do right? It's not about who's the best trainer. Who is the best handler.
The way the rules are set up has very little to do with the better dog and way to much to do with the best handler and best trainer for the rules that are in place.
Rules are like laws. Less is more.

---

__________________
Cheyenne & Jennifer Cummings
Seneca , MO
(417)317-4815
"TEAM MAFIA"
*NATIONAL GRNITECH GRCH GRNITECH HALL OF FAME PKC PLATIUM CH REDNECK BACKWOODS SHACK
2014 OK STATE CH, 2015 MO PKC LEADER, 2016 PKC NATIONALS SEMIFINALIST, 2016 UKC TOP 20, 2O17 UKC WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP 3RD PLACE, 2018 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4, 2018 MO PKC STATE CHAMPION, 2019 AUTUMN OAKS NATIONAL GRNITE CH, 2019 PKC WORLD CH SEMIFINALIST. 2021 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4.
*PKC WORLD CHAMPION PLATNIUM CHAMPION GRNITECH SHACK'S HEATHER ISLAND SOUTHERN STOGIE
2021 OKLAHOMA STATE CHAMPION, 2022 PKC WORLD CHAMPION, 2022 MO PKC STATE LEADER

RIP
*GRNITECH PKC SCH REDNECK MAFIA PKC HALL OF FAME REPRODUCER INDUCTED 2022
*GRNITECH CH PKC SILVER CH REDNECK SHACK ATTACK aka TAC 2018 OKLAHOMA STATE CHAMPION, 2020 MO PKC STATE LEADER

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Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 2064

Your caught up in the game.
The reason we have more and perhaps better groups of dogs that can tree coon is because of the modern training and tracking equipment, along with ease of knowledge thru the use of the internet. If you think it's because of the hunts, maybe you need to open your thoughts up to the reason coonhounds have such a low percentage of pups that make the cut.

The hunts and the way the rules are heading will drive a wedge in our sport between the old and young, pleasure and professional handlers. Time will reveal this.

The biggest opponent should be the dogs not the trainers and handlers.

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Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 5709

quote:

---

Originally posted by pamjohnson
Your caught up in the game.
The reason we have more and perhaps better groups of dogs that can tree coon is because of the modern training and tracking equipment, along with ease of knowledge thru the use of the internet. If you think it's because of the hunts, maybe you need to open your thoughts up to the reason coonhounds have such a low percentage of pups that make the cut.

The hunts and the way the rules are heading will drive a wedge in our sport between the old and young, pleasure and professional handlers. Time will reveal this.

The biggest opponent should be the dogs not the trainers and handlers.

---

__________________
Cheyenne & Jennifer Cummings
Seneca , MO
(417)317-4815
"TEAM MAFIA"
*NATIONAL GRNITECH GRCH GRNITECH HALL OF FAME PKC PLATIUM CH REDNECK BACKWOODS SHACK
2014 OK STATE CH, 2015 MO PKC LEADER, 2016 PKC NATIONALS SEMIFINALIST, 2016 UKC TOP 20, 2O17 UKC WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP 3RD PLACE, 2018 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4, 2018 MO PKC STATE CHAMPION, 2019 AUTUMN OAKS NATIONAL GRNITE CH, 2019 PKC WORLD CH SEMIFINALIST. 2021 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4.
*PKC WORLD CHAMPION PLATNIUM CHAMPION GRNITECH SHACK'S HEATHER ISLAND SOUTHERN STOGIE
2021 OKLAHOMA STATE CHAMPION, 2022 PKC WORLD CHAMPION, 2022 MO PKC STATE LEADER

RIP
*GRNITECH PKC SCH REDNECK MAFIA PKC HALL OF FAME REPRODUCER INDUCTED 2022
*GRNITECH CH PKC SILVER CH REDNECK SHACK ATTACK aka TAC 2018 OKLAHOMA STATE CHAMPION, 2020 MO PKC STATE LEADER

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Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 5709

I will also add that per UKC rules the cast still has to walk at a pace obtainable to all cast members. So regardless of your fitness level, age or whatever you may compete.
I believe the point many of you would like to make but haven't came out and said is that you don't want to walk to split trees from 4 different dogs which much of the time equates to miles by the time it's over. You believe all these dogs are man made this way because of hunt rules. Reality is that so many are born naturally indifferent to what others are doing. Maybe they were only pack animals following a leader when they themselves lacked enough ability to tree coons on their own and have evolved through breeding practices that more and more do not need help therefore more "pack leaders" and less "followers". Even today much of the time at least some of the dogs are on the same tree out of the truck especially if it's close.
Yes, comp hunts but even pleasure hunting with others, even back in the day, they wanted the one that's first. It's human nature.

__________________
Cheyenne & Jennifer Cummings
Seneca , MO
(417)317-4815
"TEAM MAFIA"
*NATIONAL GRNITECH GRCH GRNITECH HALL OF FAME PKC PLATIUM CH REDNECK BACKWOODS SHACK
2014 OK STATE CH, 2015 MO PKC LEADER, 2016 PKC NATIONALS SEMIFINALIST, 2016 UKC TOP 20, 2O17 UKC WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP 3RD PLACE, 2018 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4, 2018 MO PKC STATE CHAMPION, 2019 AUTUMN OAKS NATIONAL GRNITE CH, 2019 PKC WORLD CH SEMIFINALIST. 2021 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4.
*PKC WORLD CHAMPION PLATNIUM CHAMPION GRNITECH SHACK'S HEATHER ISLAND SOUTHERN STOGIE
2021 OKLAHOMA STATE CHAMPION, 2022 PKC WORLD CHAMPION, 2022 MO PKC STATE LEADER

RIP
*GRNITECH PKC SCH REDNECK MAFIA PKC HALL OF FAME REPRODUCER INDUCTED 2022
*GRNITECH CH PKC SILVER CH REDNECK SHACK ATTACK aka TAC 2018 OKLAHOMA STATE CHAMPION, 2020 MO PKC STATE LEADER

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Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 2064

I can agree with a little of what your saying. Natural ability is better than it was in the 70's but isn't nearly what it could be.

I hunted wide hunting dogs before tracking collars. I have hunted dogs without any training collar. Put the coat out way too often. Today I don't cut loose without. Nobody serious about the hunts does. I've been told u train them till they die or your done putting them in the hunts.

Society is in general lazy I agree. Breaks my heart to see the older fellows unable to compete. Yeah I know the rules say keep a pace obtainable by all but it's not just the pace it is the miles as well. I also realize the best cast I've been on will walk your guts out and that's because them are fast hard going good coondogs. I'm still very much in great shape and condition for long hard walking up and down hill but I'm not as young as I once was.

I guess I've just seen some things in this sport that was better and realize some things are getting worse. Couple of them I can mention but I don't have answers to are.
Most fellows hunt alone. Me included
Dogs getting real deep. The miles get grueling
Trainers making dogs what they need to.
Lack of young and older hunters
There's more but I reckon we might as well take these rules and the independence of things all the way we can go with it. Go separate strike points

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Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 5459

I have seen many changes in my 74 years and over 60 years coon hunting. I definitely know that today's dogs are way better than the dogs of the past were across the board. A top dog was rare in my country 50 years ago and are common today. A dog treeing it's own coon under 1 year of age is really common today, unheard of years ago. While the dogs have gotten better other things have gotten worse. We used to have more hunting places than we could hunt, nowadays places to hunt have diminished and soon will be hard to find. I have seen thousands of acres clear cut and more and more being clear cut. It takes a hundred or more years for oak trees to mature, that's 2 or more generations of humans to see these trees grow back and most of the clear cut areas grow back in pines. Animals like coons rely on oaks for food. Loss of timber and habitat has caused a loss in population of coons and other small animals. Even the National forest areas are being clear cut. Hunters are losing ground to hunt at a fast rate. I really wish that I could go back 50 years and do it all again, hunt all night in a boundary of timber enjoying a good population of coons, but those days are over. My wish today are that all of us can operate in the best interest of our sport of coon hunting while we still can. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1475

I learnt that “location” had more to do with how good of hound we had in the early years. I started hunting in 1956 with a gentleman who had a yellow lab and a black lab Airedale cross and I had a 3/4 blue tick 1/4 Walker. We treed a lot of coon but my biscuit eater wore out my jacket because I had to leave it out many a night because she loved to exercise deer if she didn’t fine a raccoon. Made my own shock collar using a Model A coil and a 9 volt battery. It was not cordless but it did send a message. In 63 I got my first Reg hound that was born deer proof and if the others ran junk he came back and would set by me. (In 88 I got a female from the same line and she would do the same) I raised a litter out of that grade female and kept a pup that was doing it all at 9 months of age and the funny thing is he was born as straight as an arrow and he and a couple of his litter mates treed me the biggest coon I have even harvested, 56 pounds and 51 inches from tip of nose to tip of tail. (It was weighted on a scale) All of the above hounds were natural tree hounds and stayed until you got to them. That first female treed for 5 hours one night before we got to her. And her pup is buried at the base of the tree we got that big raccoon out of. I hunted with lots of different hunters in the early years “up here” and they all had nice tree hounds. But I have talked with hunters from the south and they tell me that wasn’t the case for them.

I do believe you are right on with the lost of hunting ground but the bigger thing happening is those that hunt other game, bear, coyote or cats, can not use a dog that doesn’t pack. And for those that still pleasure hunt with friends don’t want “todays” winners. We still want to hear the music of the track and the good change over at the tree.

Enjoy what you like, but don’t feed what you don’t 😉

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OLD TIMER

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Registered: Sep 2009
Location: Monticello, Wi
Posts: 726

The high coon population makes it difficult to identify an outstanding track dog
When I find a outstanding running coon I give it a NAME and try not to kill it. It takes a coon that doesn,t want to tree to make a top track dog!

The Competition Hunts are becoming less of a place to identify SUPERIORITY of performance.

I don't want to hunt a dog during the week that won't compete. Lowering the strike points will just result in producing lower quality that are mentally challenged.

Ken Risley

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Registered: Jan 2016
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Posts: 552

Top track dogs are born top track dogs. Same goes for tree dogs. All they need is an owner/handler to put them in the woods where they can find coon and take good care of them physically. It’s always more enjoyable if the owner/handler puts the extra time in getting them to handle as well.

It’s up to us humans to give them the chance to bring out the best of their genetically predisposed abilities. No hound becomes good at that by sitting in a pen or on the end of the chain.

Wonder if the Cummings family has any idea how many hours, miles and dollars it took to have a World Champion?

39 years ago when my wife and I married, she suggested we keep records on what it cost us to keep my hounds. I didn’t even pause to think about that. Just said, “Nope we don’t want to know!🤫

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Dan

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quote:

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Originally posted by DL NH
Top track dogs are born top track dogs. Same goes for tree dogs. All they need is an owner/handler to put them in the woods where they can find coon and take good care of them physically. It’s always more enjoyable if the owner/handler puts the extra time in getting them to handle as well.

It’s up to us humans to give them the chance to bring out the best of their genetically predisposed abilities. No hound becomes good at that by sitting in a pen or on the end of the chain.

Wonder if the Cummings family has any idea how many hours, miles and dollars it took to have a World Champion?

39 years ago when my wife and I married, she suggested we keep records on what it cost us to keep my hounds. I didn’t even pause to think about that. Just said, “Nope we don’t want to know!🤫

---

__________________
Cheyenne & Jennifer Cummings
Seneca , MO
(417)317-4815
"TEAM MAFIA"
*NATIONAL GRNITECH GRCH GRNITECH HALL OF FAME PKC PLATIUM CH REDNECK BACKWOODS SHACK
2014 OK STATE CH, 2015 MO PKC LEADER, 2016 PKC NATIONALS SEMIFINALIST, 2016 UKC TOP 20, 2O17 UKC WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP 3RD PLACE, 2018 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4, 2018 MO PKC STATE CHAMPION, 2019 AUTUMN OAKS NATIONAL GRNITE CH, 2019 PKC WORLD CH SEMIFINALIST. 2021 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4.
*PKC WORLD CHAMPION PLATNIUM CHAMPION GRNITECH SHACK'S HEATHER ISLAND SOUTHERN STOGIE
2021 OKLAHOMA STATE CHAMPION, 2022 PKC WORLD CHAMPION, 2022 MO PKC STATE LEADER

RIP
*GRNITECH PKC SCH REDNECK MAFIA PKC HALL OF FAME REPRODUCER INDUCTED 2022
*GRNITECH CH PKC SILVER CH REDNECK SHACK ATTACK aka TAC 2018 OKLAHOMA STATE CHAMPION, 2020 MO PKC STATE LEADER

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Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 5459

quote:

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Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
I know what I tell the IRS and deductions aren't hard to find lol!
2 WC this year and an old National Champion/Platnium Ch still being hunted and still producing pups. Countless hours and countless miles. We've been lucky and blessed that it has came to a point where they are paying their own way. But even if competition hunts ended tomorrow and we were in the hole like the old days Cheyenne would still be doing what he loves and doing his best to pass it on to others and future generations like was done before him.

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

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