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Proposal 3 - Coming in to Tree After Judge Arrives
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Option A 83 39.15%
Option B 89 41.98%
Leave as is, per current rule. 40 18.87%
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Allen / UKC
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Proposal 3 - Coming in to Tree After Judge Arrives

. Coming in to Tree After Judge Arrives.

Option A: Minus the strike position held.

Option B: Minus the strike points if coon is seen. Delete the strike points otherwise.



2019 UKC RULE PROPOSAL CLARIFICATIONS AND NOTES
Be advised, the following notes are the opinions/statements of those who submitted the proposals and may or may not necessarily reflect the opinion of UKC.


PROPOSAL 3(B): Rule change would eliminate circling strike points of dog(s) that have come into trees after the judge has arrived, these strike points would now be deleted. It would also add the exception of Rule 6 (g), to scratch dog(s) in Champion cast that run, tree or molest off game. Rule change would also remove the 5(b) exception from 4(a).

*This rule could be utilized with or without the off game exception 6(g). The important thing is to no longer allow for circle points. *The idea with this change is to eliminate the use of circle points for dogs that have either quit their tracks or have arrived late and change them to delete. Current use of these circle points are being utilized in tie breaking situations. A tie should not be broken by circle points given to a dog that has either quit it's track, came in late or even worse a dog in a Champion cast that ran, treed or molested off game. I believe the dog in order to be scratched must actually tree on or grab a hold of off game, dogs should not be scratched for simply coming into handler. I personally do not have a problem with these dogs taking minus points but have a hard time believing that a few of the breeds would go for that, if so by all means! If not the important thing is to eliminate the circle points and delete seemed like a simple to follow compromise.

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Surveyor
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Though I've sure enough had this rule save my dog getting minus strike points at times, in all honesty any declared struck dog that comes into a tree after the judge arrives didn't finish (quit) it's track and should be minused in my opinion. I don't see where seeing anything in the tree affects the fact he quit his track and deserves minus for that.

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T Felderman
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Mike,
I agree with you but I can't see minusing a dog coming into a circle slick when the slick treer gets nothing.

The coondog will be doing what he's suppose to do so this rule really shouldn't matter.

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harleydan1956
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What if the tree is voted on 2-2 ... Points deleted. And a dog checks it cause it's having trouble with track it is running. Smart enough to try to drift out to find it, but gets minused for checking tree of another dog.
Again, alot of these rule changes favor hot nosed dead loners.

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sleepy head
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quote:
Originally posted by harleydan1956
What if the tree is voted on 2-2 ... Points deleted. And a dog checks it cause it's having trouble with track it is running. Smart enough to try to drift out to find it, but gets minused for checking tree of another dog.
Again, alot of these rule changes favor hot nosed dead loners.



I don't think "dog coming to tree" includes dog trailing through checking tree and moving on. At least it shouldn't

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Bill(Chew)
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Sleepy head, a dog trailing into the tree and checking it out has come into the tree and must be handled, you don't wait to see if he will continue on.

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sleepy head
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill(Chew)
Sleepy head, a dog trailing into the tree and checking it out has come into the tree and must be handled, you don't wait to see if he will continue on.


All i can say is that if my dog is trailing through a dog treeing checks tree and trails on, my dog isn't getting handled. The advisor says to use good judgment when making that call

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sleepy head
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I witnessed this exact thing happen last weekend, the dog went another 50 yards and had the coon

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Rip
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quote:
Originally posted by sleepy head
I don't think "dog coming to tree" includes dog trailing through checking tree and moving on. At least it shouldn't


All dogs at the tree MUST be handled. There is no leeway here. If the dog comes in to the tree he has to be handled. No choice. For good or bad the dog is supposed to be handled by rule. It is a command.

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sleepy head
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quote:
Originally posted by Rip
All dogs at the tree MUST be handled. There is no leeway here. If the dog comes in to the tree he has to be handled. No choice. For good or bad the dog is supposed to be handled by rule. It is a command.


Trailing up to a tree and trailing on doesn't constitute coming in to a tree, if it does someone has decided common sense has been used to much.

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Rip
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quote:
Originally posted by sleepy head
Trailing up to a tree and trailing on doesn't constitute coming in to a tree, if it does someone has decided common sense has been used to much.


There is no room for common sense with a command rule. There is no judgement allowed. If he comes in to the tree he MUST be leashed.

Must, Shall, Will are things you just can't get around in rules.

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sleepy head
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quote:
Originally posted by Rip
There is no room for common sense with a command rule. There is no judgement allowed. If he comes in to the tree he MUST be leashed.

Must, Shall, Will are things you just can't get around in rules.



You wouldn't of caught this dog, he wasn't going in slow motion, open all the way. Retread 10 seconds after he ran the track past us with the meat

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Blaine Stout
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Just my 2 cents. But I have been on casts where dog came right by tree on track while we were there. Kept moving track around the other side of tree and right on out ended up a lil ways away treed. Had the coon as well. We did not catch him in this case because he was obviously running track. I have also had dogs not tracking come into tree and hang around they get handled. Also had dog come in running track stop at tree and locate. They got handled as well. All 3 where same thing happened but got scored different. The dog that was obviously trailing through got plussed on his coon after we shined it. The dog that came in got minused for quiting his track and coming back to cast then handled. The dog that ran in and located tree was handled and scored as coming in to the tree after judge had arrived. Because he came in and treed. In my honest opinion you have to score the dogs for each dog does in a situation. Judging is not for the weary hearted because you have to make tough calls sometimes and it can make handlers mad while being wise enough to know what the dogs are doing in each situation.

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Rip
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quote:
Originally posted by Blaine Stout
Just my 2 cents. But I have been on casts where dog came right by tree on track while we were there. Kept moving track around the other side of tree and right on out ended up a lil ways away treed. Had the coon as well. We did not catch him in this case because he was obviously running track. I have also had dogs not tracking come into tree and hang around they get handled. Also had dog come in running track stop at tree and locate. They got handled as well. All 3 where same thing happened but got scored different. The dog that was obviously trailing through got plussed on his coon after we shined it. The dog that came in got minused for quiting his track and coming back to cast then handled. The dog that ran in and located tree was handled and scored as coming in to the tree after judge had arrived. Because he came in and treed. In my honest opinion you have to score the dogs for each dog does in a situation. Judging is not for the weary hearted because you have to make tough calls sometimes and it can make handlers mad while being wise enough to know what the dogs are doing in each situation.


If the second dog came in and hung out at the tree then by the current rules you can NOT minus him for "quitting a track" because he came in after the judge arrived. The only way that dog can get minused is if a coon is seen and the dogs treeing are awarded plus points. So in your case unless you minused the dog after the tree was scored plus then you scored the dog wrong and he got minus he wasn't supposed to get.

THAT is the exact loophole this proposed change is trying to avoid, the dog not being accountable for its strike points just because it happens to come in to the tree after the judge arrives.

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Blaine Stout
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If he comes into his handler and not the tree he is minused for coming in off his track. He has to come in and show treed to fall under that rule. Just coming in is not the same as coming into the tree. It is a fine line but it is a definate line. That dog came in and walked right to his handler not to the tree never checked tree barked or anything. The difference is what the dog does when he gets there. They can question my call but we will take it back to master of hounds. There are times I have been over ruled but never on this rule.

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Blaine Stout
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It is also up to us as hunter to know that our dog did wrong and take the minus our dog deserves. I know guys that throw fits just to see if they can get out of minus. Take what is derved and let best dog that night win not the best handler. Judges as a whole need to be more accountable for rules and stick up for the rules not letting people bend them. I've been on a lot of casts that are very loosely judged. I will take my minus plus or whatever according to the black and white rules.

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Rip
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quote:
Originally posted by Blaine Stout
If he comes into his handler and not the tree he is minused for coming in off his track. He has to come in and show treed to fall under that rule. Just coming in is not the same as coming into the tree. It is a fine line but it is a definate line. That dog came in and walked right to his handler not to the tree never checked tree barked or anything. The difference is what the dog does when he gets there. They can question my call but we will take it back to master of hounds. There are times I have been over ruled but never on this rule.


No he absolutely does not have to come in and show treed. All he has to do is come in to the tree and if you are shining the tree then the handler is at the tree too so he came in to the tree. You can't shine the tree if you are not at the tree.

That is exactly the loophole this is trying to stop.

You absolutely can not minus a dog for quitting a track under the current rules if he comes in to a tree you are shining. It is against the rules and if it had been questioned you should have been over ruled. It has been gone over and over again on these forums and in the Advisor. If you are at the tree it doesn't matter if he comes in to the handler, shows treed, doesn't pay attention to the tree, mills around with his nose on the ground or whatever. If you are at the tree when he comes in the dog is saved minus unless you find a coon and the dogs treeing are awarded plus points. That rule over rides the quitting the track rule because you are told exactly what to do when a dog comes into a tree after the judge arrives.

That's why they are trying to change the rule because dogs that come in late like that are protected from minus unless you can find the coon.

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sleepy head
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in to tree means. In most cases, come in to tree is very obvious. It absolutely does not mean that a dog must come in and tree before he must be caught. Once in a while, it does require the use of some judgement. The Judge needs to decide, did the dog come in to the tree in question or didnt he? The criteria for making this decision is no different than that where a dog quits a trail that is being worked and comes in to the cast. If you are looking for a measurable distance on what is considered at the tree and what isnt, you wont get one from me. My advice is, use good judgement and be consistent.

Allen says to use good judgment. Common sense can be used please do

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sleepy head
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quote:
Originally posted by Rip
There is no room for common sense with a command rule. There is no judgement allowed. If he comes in to the tree he MUST be leashed.

Must, Shall, Will are things you just can't get around in rules.



it does require the use of some judgement. The Judge needs to decide, did the dog come in to the tree in question or didnt he? The criteria for making this decision is no different than that where a dog quits a trail that is being worked and comes in to the cast. If you are looking for a measurable distance on what is considered at the tree and what isnt, you wont get one from me. My advice is, use good judgement and be consistent.

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Rip
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quote:
Originally posted by sleepy head
it does require the use of some judgement. The Judge needs to decide, did the dog come in to the tree in question or didnt he? The criteria for making this decision is no different than that where a dog quits a trail that is being worked and comes in to the cast. If you are looking for a measurable distance on what is considered at the tree and what isnt, you wont get one from me. My advice is, use good judgement and be consistent.


That's the problem. There is a rules order that everyone must go by in order to be consistent and why there is such a problem with people not understanding the rules. If a rule tells you exactly what to do in a situation then it doesn't matter what the other rules say. There is permissive wording like "may" and concrete wording like SHALL. The word May gives a choice, concrete wording does not.

You can not overlook commands. MUST, WILL, SHALL can't be over ridden by judgement. Did the dog come in to the tree after the judge arrived. It makes absolutely no difference why he MUST be leashed. It doesn't matter if he quit 10 tracks if he comes in to the tree he has to be leashed and his score depends on what the other dogs are scored (circle if they are minused or circled, minus if the dogs treeing are plussed) We can't get around that.

If the cast is shining the tree then they are at the tree. It doesn't matter why or where the dog comes in at he MUST be leashed that is one of the reasons you can't minus the dog for coming in after. Who says he wasn't going to go on and straighten the track out and tree the coon that these dogs missed (if they were slick)? But if he comes in to the tree you don't have the option to check and see he MUST be leashed. If the handler is at the tree when the dog comes in and the dog goes STRAIGHT to the handler and never even looks at the tree, because the handler is at the tree he MUST be leashed and because he is at the tree then you can't minus the dog for quitting the track no matter what.

The only judgement here is was the handler at the tree or not. If he is 50 yards out in a field shining that is one thing but if he is in the proximity of the tree the dog is saved by the rule no doubt about it.

That's why when I am judging if it's a circle tree I move the cast away from the tree while we are listening for dogs loose to open cause if we are still standing at the tree when he comes in even after the tree is scored then by rule he gets his strike circled. Leave the tree to listen and this isn't possible.

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sleepy head
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quote:
Originally posted by Rip
That's the problem. There is a rules order that everyone must go by in order to be consistent and why there is such a problem with people not understanding the rules. If a rule tells you exactly what to do in a situation then it doesn't matter what the other rules say. There is permissive wording like "may" and concrete wording like SHALL. The word May gives a choice, concrete wording does not.

You can not overlook commands. MUST, WILL, SHALL can't be over ridden by judgement. Did the dog come in to the tree after the judge arrived. It makes absolutely no difference why he MUST be leashed. We can't get around that.

If the cast is shining the tree then they are at the tree. It doesn't matter why or where the dog comes in at he MUST be leashed that is one of the reasons you can't minus the dog for coming in after. Who says he wasn't going to go on and straighten the track out and tree the coon that these dogs missed (if they were slick)? But if he comes in to the tree you don't have the option to check and see he MUST be leashed. If the handler is at the tree when the dog comes in and the dog goes STRAIGHT to the handler and never even looks at the tree, because the handler is at the tree he MUST be leashed and because he is at the tree then you can't minus the dog for quitting the track no matter what.

The only judgement here is was the handler at the tree or not. If he is 50 yards out in a field shining that is one thing but if he is in the proximity of the tree the dog is saved by the rule no doubt about it.

That's why when I am judging if it's a circle tree I move the cast away from the tree while we are listening for dogs loose to open cause if we are still standing at the tree when he comes in even after the tree is scored then by rule he gets his strike circled. Leave the tree to listen and this isn't possible.



Read!!!! What Allen has given for the criteria to determine if has came in to tree. Same as quitting a track. By your way thinking if a cast has a dog trail past and dog goes up on a tree, he's minused. It doesn'tt work that way. Common sense, good judgment makes the right call.

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Rip
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quote:
Originally posted by sleepy head
Read!!!! What Allen has given for the criteria to determine if has came in to tree. Same as quitting a track. By your way thinking if a cast has a dog trail past and dog goes up on a tree, he's minused. It doesn'tt work that way. Common sense, good judgment makes the right call.


Look I'm not saying that's the way it SHOULD be, just saying by rule that's absolutely the way it is. I am correct on this. You don't have a choice.

That's why they are trying to change the rule. Too many dogs coming in late getting their strike circled but if you go by what is written in black and white then that's the way it must be scored.

There is no judgement in that. If they are at the tree they have to be leashed no matter why they are there. If they come in to the tree after the judge arrives they are circled unless the other dogs are plussed no matter if they quit 10 tracks or came in and rared up on their handler that is under the tree shining the tree they are scored the same because they came in to the tree.

The only judgement is what is "at" the tree and that is like how far is too far to meet you off the tree. Is "at" the tree 10 yards? 20? You have to be there but there is no doubt you have no judgement when rules say will, shall or must.

The rule tells you exactly what to do and you don't have the ability to override the rule based on judgement. Same way as for many years you had to scratch a dog for off game when a squirrel.

Bottom line is the quitting the track rule never applies to a dog that quit it's track and comes in to a tree that is being scored. It just doesn't. They are trying to change that.

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Old Post 05-27-2019 09:21 PM
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sleepy head
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Registered: May 2015
Location: IN
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in to tree means. In most cases, come in to tree is very obvious. It absolutely does not mean that a dog must come in and tree before he must be caught. Once in a while, it does require the use of some judgement. The Judge needs to decide, did the dog come in to the tree in question or didnt he? The criteria for making this decision is no different than that where a dog quits a trail that is being worked and comes in to the cast. If you are looking for a measurable distance on what is considered at the tree and what isnt, you wont get one from me. My advice is, use good judgement and be consistent.

Dated March 2019 published by UKC. It doesn't get much clearer. Not hard. to understand, logical, fair, reasonable, basic common sense. RIP your discussion is with Allen, I'm done

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Old Post 05-27-2019 09:31 PM
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Rip
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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4735

quote:
Originally posted by sleepy head
in to tree means. In most cases, come in to tree is very obvious. It absolutely does not mean that a dog must come in and tree before he must be caught. Once in a while, it does require the use of some judgement. The Judge needs to decide, did the dog come in to the tree in question or didnt he? The criteria for making this decision is no different than that where a dog quits a trail that is being worked and comes in to the cast. If you are looking for a measurable distance on what is considered at the tree and what isnt, you wont get one from me. My advice is, use good judgement and be consistent.

Dated March 2019 published by UKC. It doesn't get much clearer. Not hard. to understand, logical, fair, reasonable, basic common sense. RIP your discussion is with Allen, I'm done



And that is exactly what I said. The only judgement is did he come into the tree. That's the only judgement you can use and why he said "once in a while" it requires judgement. Most of the time it does not. One time would be in the situation I described above, handler 50 yards in the field shining a tree and the dog comes to him. The handler is shining the tree but at 50 yards away is he still "at" the tree. In my judgement no he isn't. That's the judgement part, not what to do with them when they come in. He even says he doesn't have to show treed.

Did he come in to the tree or not. If he did then nothing else matters he is to be caught and scored according to what the other dogs score is. That is all I have been saying. No other rule applies and the only "judgement" is whether or not the dog came in to the tree.

You can never, EVER apply the quitting the track rule to a dog that comes into a tree after the judge. It can't happen by rule.

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Old Post 05-27-2019 11:31 PM
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sleepy head
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Registered: May 2015
Location: IN
Posts: 1894

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
And that is exactly what I said. The only judgement is did he come into the tree. That's the only judgement you can use and why he said "once in a while" it requires judgement. Most of the time it does not. One time would be in the situation I described above, handler 50 yards in the field shining a tree and the dog comes to him. The handler is shining the tree but at 50 yards away is he still "at" the tree. In my judgement no he isn't. That's the judgement part, not what to do with them when they come in. He even says he doesn't have to show treed.

Did he come in to the tree or not. If he did then nothing else matters he is to be caught and scored according to what the other dogs score is. That is all I have been saying. No other rule applies and the only "judgement" is whether or not the dog came in to the tree.

You can never, EVER apply the quitting the track rule to a dog that comes into a tree after the judge. It can't happen by rule.



Here's your first post replying to me. You was wrong plain and simple
iginally posted by sleepy head
I don't think "dog coming to tree" includes dog trailing through checking tree and moving on. At least it shouldn't


All dogs at the tree MUST be handled. There is no leeway here. If the dog comes in to the tree he has to be handled. No choice. For good or bad the dog is supposed to be handled by rule. It is a command.
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Old Post 05-27-2019 11:51 PM
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