Pat Bizich
Banned
Registered: May 2004
Location: northeast
Posts: 1278 |
quote:
Originally posted by Rip
It's UKC rules so you use the official UKC definition which everyone should know by heart.
Opening where no track is evident
nothing about how much time, now many times, just if they are struck while opening with no track evident.
You have made my point.I beg to differ.
Allen does indeed mention time in a definition he posted clarifying babbling.
[QUOTE]"Allen / UKC
Administrator
Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 8084
That's not what the first advisor said !
It said the judge had to make the decision at the time of the call.
The article in the Advisor addresses a specific question. The questions suggests that whenever dogs are declared struck in the first minute of having been turned loose, the judges in their part of the country are saying that the dog must open again within 15 or 20 seconds. Otherwise, the judges are minusing them for babbling.
The first scenario in the response references a dog that leaves babbling and continues to babble at the one minute mark when the handler has no choice but to declare the dog struck. The Advisor goes on to suggest that "if it is determined that the dog is still babbling (opening where no track is evident) at the time it is declared struck" then the judge should make the call immediately. In this case, we're talking about something that has been determined. Once determined, minus immediately. In other words don't wait for another minute or two after it has already determined it.
The second scenario references a dog that opened once or twice after having been cut loose and is declared struck. Again, the Advisor says to minus the dog immediately regardless of any time frame. The time frame it's referring to is: the need for the dog to bark again within 15 or 20 seconds or during the one minute grace period that is also mentioned in the article. Again, "if" it is already determined.
Sometimes it takes a little bit for the judge to make the determination. Once determined, make the call immediately (at that point). There's no time period spelled out in the rules as a measurement or criteria to determine babbling. It's a judgement call that is determined by the judge.
I hear this misconception a lot..... If a dog is declared struck within the one-minute grace period it must carry the track on out OR it is considered to be babbling! That's not necessarily true. The rule simply defines babbling as a dog that is declared struck where no track is evident. Nothing more, nothing less. It has nothing to do with any time frame, time period, or grace period. Yes, it might take the judge a little bit of time to make the determination or to come to that conclusion, based on the dogs actions or otherwise.
That said; I understand that the article you referred to might be easily misunderstood because of the way the term immediately is used. I'll admit, the Advisor is sometimes the toughest article to write. Not because of not having a good understanding of most any specific rule but rather to write it in a way that is easily understood and as intended. The words used and how you use them can be huge. I'll be the first to admit, my writing skills are not nearly as good as many. But I think, or at least hope, it gets better with experience. The other side of that coin is; at my age I might not be able to learn many more new tricks"[UNQUOTE]
No wonder there is so much discussion and difference of opinions on whether a dog is/is not babbling.
Ukc's definition of what a babbler is says where no track is evident'
They go on to say babbling is a dog that leaves babbling and continues to babble at one minute mark.
Diametrically he then states a dog can be minus for only opening once or twice. UKC's interpretation.(Inconsistent with the definition of babble.)
Darn it,you can get minus at the will of a judge if he thinks your dog is opening too much or he can minus your dog if he is drifting a track and not opening enough to suit the judge.(Incidentally trying to find a way to beat you.)
This why I continue to debate that this rule needs eliminated.
There is too much ambiguity when attempting to enforce a possible babbler.
When a dog trees a opossum, runs a deer, strikes a track. quits a track, leaves a tree. These are all pretty much physically able to be seen , heard, and scored accordingly.
Not a babbling dog though.Because you do not know for certain. I know,I know you don't have to be certain. If I intend to minus a dog for doing wrong I want to be sure it is guilty first.
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