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Note on Line breeding. In the UK there a Kennel Club known as just that. "The Kennel Club" They register over 200 breeds of hounds. They have put a limit on the number of litters a female can have to 4. Just to prevent people from reading how line breeding is the answer to superior hounds and overdoing it. Yes, most breeds of dogs were developed from line breeding. Line breeding is a useful tool. Like any tool. In the wrong hands it can be dangerous. Line breeding without proper selection for medical issues and behavior faults is something that should concern everyone.
I have seen quality dogs that are quality representatives of their genetics. No reason to think the cross should fail. Until you make in and shake your head wondering what happened. I will tell you what happened. The breeder didn't recognize that with each of his two line bred hounds it was time for an outcross. The breeder thought a little more of the same thing would be good. That is why I don't promote line breeding. It is hard for the ego to let go of a bloodline it has cultivated and share it with an outcross.

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Bruce, The thing that i think most people do not understand is an actual "True" linebred animal. Most think because it has ole so so in there a couple times there line bred, not true.
Breed close, set traits and maintain them, then fined a complementary line to outcross to for Hybrid Vigor.

Nothing is exact in breeding but when you keep your linebred line going you can always go back to the "base paint" and tweak from there instead of starting from scratch.

I like his word, being Judicious on your crosses.
There is nothing in the world wrong with breeding tight on bloodlines, in fact its what we need a big dose off, from people who are judicious in there breeding.

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Don't let the left wing foo foo breeders sway you Bruce! lol

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The most valuable thing to a breeding program is the man making the crosses.
So many times they stack a bunch of family of dogs then when the pups are born they keep a pair and sell the rest and then they find out it did not work and they sell those pups too ! If a person is going to take up breeding dogs close in family's he needs to keep close contact with all offspring to eliminate the weak links. Buuuuuut I made a family cross that did not work the whole litter wasent even average I eliminated mine it was a seman cross it was expensive I sold the pups when they were little felt bad about it tried to get them back they wouldn't sell those worthless boogers to me they knew what I was going to do lol they bred them and they are reproducing good dogs I am scratching my head on that one lol.


Tar

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Tar, I don't know so im asking?
One or two close crosses may not set the traits? So actually how tight were they? If there were several outside bloodlines up close you were still with a big ocean of genes.
Just wondering?

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I bred Macie granny's littermate sister back to her grandfather her dads sire but after the fact I think quadrupling up on all those old time slow starting dogs was why it did not work. I hunted mine hard big powerful agile dog with a huge mouth would strike most of the tracks ahead of the dogs and take cold tracks away from them locate ahead of them and mill the tree would fight a coon hard if he could see it he would tree hard but you tie him at the tree he would be looking off like he was ready to go run anouther he was two I put a ton of coons out to him I finally couldn't stand it no more all his littermates but one are the same way.



Tar


But one of them is being hunted up in Virginia getting him ready for the hunts huge mouth way above average in abilitys he will be brought back down here to be campaigned.

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Here is my new cross

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quote:

---

Originally posted by CONRAD FRYAR
Bruce, The thing that i think most people do not understand is an actual "True" linebred animal. Most think because it has ole so so in there a couple times there line bred, not true.
Breed close, set traits and maintain them, then fined a complementary line to outcross to for Hybrid Vigor.

Nothing is exact in breeding but when you keep your linebred line going you can always go back to the "base paint" and tweak from there instead of starting from scratch.

I like his word, being Judicious on your crosses.
There is nothing in the world wrong with breeding tight on bloodlines, in fact its what we need a big dose off, from people who are judicious in there breeding.

---

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WESTWIND GSPs ... as featured in Gun Dog Magazine..

Pasted below is a part of an article focusing on line breeding and out crossing. Interesting read. See the entire artical at http://www.westwindgsps.com/linebreeding.htm

Dogs actually have more genes than humans. Tens of thousands of genes interact to produce a single dog. All genes are inherited in pairs, one from the sire and one from the dame. If the inherited genes from both parents are identical they are said to be homozygous. If the pair of inherited genes are not similar they are said to be heterozygous. The gene pairs that make a German Shorthair breed true to type are obviously homozygous. However, variable gene pairs like those that control coat color, size, scenting ability, etc. are still heterozygous within the breed as a whole.

Linebreeding concentrates the genes of a specific ancestor or ancestors through their appearance multiple times in a pedigree. When a specific ancestor appears more than once behind at least one animal on both the sire's side and yet another animal on the dame's side homozygosity for that animal's traits are possible.

However, if this specific ancestor appears only through a particular offspring of the ancestor in question then the Breeder is actually breeding on this offspring of the ancestor rather than on the ancestor itself. This is why having many "uncovered crosses" to a specific ancestor ( those that come through different offspring of this specific ancestor) gives the Breeder the greatest chance of making the desired traits of the specific ancestor homozygous.

Homozygosity greatly improves the chances that the resulting pups will in turn pass on the desired traits of the specific ancestor to their pups. When selecting pups from a line breed litter the Breeder must choose pups that display the desired traits of the specific ancestor or they have accomplished little. In fact, if these traits are not present in a linebred pup it is very likely that it inherited its genes from the remaining part of its pedigree and will be unable to breed true to type. Because the Breeder selected “out” for the pups that didn’t display this original ancestor’s traits.

Inbreeding significantly increases homozygosity, and therefore uniformity within a litter. One of the best methods of evaluating how successful a linebreeding has been is to gauge the similarity of the littermates as compared with pups of other litters with similar pedigrees. Considerable similarity among littermates tells the Breeder the genes have "nicked" or paired together as anticipated. The resulting pups will likely be able to pass these genes to the next generation.

Undesirable recessive genes are always masked by a dominant gene. Through inbreeding a rare recessive gene can be passed from a common ancestor on both the sire and the dame's side creating a homozygous recessive offspring. The resulting offspring actually displays the trait neither of their parents displayed ( even though both of them carried it ). Understand that inbreeding does not create undesirable genes it simply increases the chance that traits which are already present in a heterozygous state within the breed will be displayed.

Too many Breeders outcross as soon as an undesirable trait appears, blaming the problem on breeding "too close." Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact out-crossing insures that the undesirable trait will be carried generation after generation in a heterozygous recessive state only to rear its ugly head again and again. Therefore the Breeder who turns away from breeding “close” is simply passing a known problem on to succeeding generations and future Breeders.

When an undesirable trait is "unmasked" the Breeder who does his breed a real service is the one that stays with his line long enough to rid it of the undesirable trait. By controlling which specimens within their line are used for breeding in succeeding generations this Breeder can eliminate the undesirable trait. Once the recessive gene is removed it can never again affect the Breeder's line. Inbreeding doesn't cause good genes to mutate into bad genes it merely increases the likelihood that they will be displayed.

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If everyone would just understand this!


Understand that inbreeding does not create undesirable genes it simply increases the chance that traits which are already present in a heterozygous state within the breed will be displayed.

Too many Breeders outcross as soon as an undesirable trait appears, blaming the problem on breeding "too close." Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact out-crossing insures that the undesirable trait will be carried generation after generation in a heterozygous recessive state only to rear its ugly head again and again. Therefore the Breeder who turns away from breeding “close” is simply passing a known problem on to succeeding generations and future Breeders.

When an undesirable trait is "unmasked" the Breeder who does his breed a real service is the one that stays with his line long enough to rid it of the undesirable trait. By controlling which specimens within their line are used for breeding in succeeding generations this Breeder can eliminate the undesirable trait. Once the recessive gene is removed it can never again affect the Breeder's line. Inbreeding doesn't cause good genes to mutate into bad genes it merely increases the likelihood that they will be displayed.

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novicane65, What i meant is if you outcross and it does not work you go back to the original linebred line. And move on from there, and yes you will have to keep breeding stock around through friends, semen, other hunters etc...

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quote:

---

Originally posted by novicane65
So exactly how can you get back to the "base" paint? Not like you can uncross a few crosses. I understand you could possibly bred back to a sire from the line you started yours from. But what happens if you can't bred back to a sire? How would you be able to go back in a line you don't have any semen on?

---

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quote:

---

Originally posted by novicane65
So exactly how can you get back to the "base" paint? Not like you can uncross a few crosses. I understand you could possibly bred back to a sire from the line you started yours from. But what happens if you can't bred back to a sire? How would you be able to go back in a line you don't have any semen on?

---

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When a dominant and recessive gene match up the dominant will be displayed whether it is color, scenting etc...
Scenting could for cold nose or hot nose and whichever of these are dominant is what will be inherited...

Let’s say the cold nose trait is recessive...so for the pup to be cold nosed it must inherit one cold nose recessive gene from each parent...some call this a dominant recessive...it was a proper term back in the old days...so in line bred dogs that display the cold nose...when bred together then the pups will be cold nosed...because each parent would have two recessive each for cold nose...this means that the pups will have no choice but be cold nosed...we said cold nose was a recessive as an example...I do not know if cold nose is dominant or recessive in reality (strictly used here as an example)...

When one of the line bred dogs is bred to an outcrossed (open bred) dog only one gene can be acquired from each dog so the dominant gene (hot nose) will be displayed because it paired up with the cold nosed recessive...dominant always wins when paired with a recessive...

Having said that I will venture out to say there are clusters (baskets) of genes or genetic components that cause dilutions or variations in nose power, ranging, treeing, color etc...etc...within a litter...why is it that there can be color variations in a redbone litter???

One thing for sure...when selecting consistently for certain traits from a linebred line of dogs then the chance of getting what we select for will increase...

I posted earlier on here about red and black color genes...breeding one black dog to a line of redbones can screw up the red color for a few generations...and we are talking about traits that are visual...so one must know that genes from a linebred line of walkers can play out the same when outcrossing with another line of walkers...
Especially when we are talking about traits that can vary and not be visual...

When judging our dogs for breeding potential we must be honest with ourselves...same thing when selecting pups as potential breeders...our breeding program can only be as good as we select...keep the 4 pups you perceive to be the best after early testing...at 6 months cut back to three...at 8 months back to two at 1.5 years or before you should know which might be worth considering for improving the program...

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quote:

---

Originally posted by thomasg
you would make a bother to sister cross .one of the best i ever seen turned lose was bred this way by some guy way up north whos pitcher was easy to pick out in the cooner with the same hat and dark sunglasses on in the winners circle.lol

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I know there is a lot of favor towards line breeding here. I think anyone seriously thinking about breeding hounds has to crawl before they walk. We have way to many people thinking they can breed two coonhounds and make money off the pups now. You take these same people that know nothing about breeding and instill in their heads then can make a line bred cross and get more money for their pups and we are then going down hill.

I look at breeders like this. You have the guy that is serious and devotes his life to a line of hounds. You have the group of guys, say two or three that devotes their lives to a line of hounds. The third group and some may disagree, is everyone that breeds a dog of a certain breed. Yes everyone of you out there that breeds lets say WALKERS contributes to the future of of the WALKER breed. Take the collective breeders of any breed and they all are working together, even if they hate one another, to move the breed in a direction. It is like the group is moving a barge. A barge moves slowly and picks up speed. It changes course slowly and it doesn't stop on a dime. That over time is how the breeds move. That is why I think it is important to leave the family breeding to the dedicated people that are honest with themselves and understand both the positives and negatives of what they are doing. As a group we have already eliminated discussions on CULLING. Society has told us that is not the thing to do. When actually Culling to the serious honest breeder that wants to make improvements. Is one of the most vital tools to their success. Yes, making it not politically correct to cull has an effect on that barge and its direction. So we take the newcomer and already have removed Culling from his vocabulary and then we fill his head with Line Breeding is the only way to go stories. Are we really doing our breeds justice? Kind of like giving someone a loaded gun and sending them into battle without any training. But hey, going into battle will make them a hero. That is their only thought, being a hero. Some have put our dogs tracking ability and having a coon in the tree aside to be a BREEDER.

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Bruce not that it is the right way but the way I do it an exzample is my babe female I am hunting now. She is out of Macie which is a littermate to my granny female they carry rattler 4 times then we bred Macie to royal rehab which was out of bad habit he was out of a rattler bred female who's sister was resposible for tequila sunrise I still maintained that old dog but moderned it up with some good reproducers with him in their pedigree and it worked when I breed her I know where a Grntch littermate to the Fred dog I was huntings daddy babe is a littermate sister to Fred's momma so iam going to make the same cross as Fred .................. I go out then I come back in I don't know what kinda breeding you call it the old old ansesters are still there but a little more modern reproducers too !! Always kept me with dogs I could compete against anybody in the harshest conditions.



Tar

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Bruce, I 100% agree not very many should be breeders, but i look at it another way, I feel what your talking about has been happening for over 20 yrs or more," everybody is a breeder puttin them Wakers out there"

I feel that the man who breeds should be informed on the different ways a true breeding program should be run to keep check on the dogs you are producing.
In reality a novice would really have to work hard at a line breeding program, where as Just breeding Walker to Walker is relatively easy.
At any rate I would suggest to all young breeders educate yourselves, there are different ways to get there, strive to produce dogs you are proud of.

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Your right about looking at if over time. Actually probably about 50 years. Ever since I have been spending my money on Walker pups.

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Are you really breeding cold nosed dogs, or dogs with the smarts to know how to work that track up.

Several years ago there was a study done that implied all dogs can smell the same. It's just some dogs get more excited than other on older scent.

There are lots of "cold" nosed dogs out there that stand on their head on a bad track, then there are others that can move that same track out and get it treed like it's a hot track.

Both dogs smelled the same track, just one of them had the brains to know what to do with it.

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I like a dog that runs a cold track to catch never barking twice in the same spot. That being said most of these type of dogs when young will run the poowey out of a deer until instructed not to lol.


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I am not disputing your statement " Several years ago there was a study done that implied all dogs can smell the same" I would like to know where I can get a copy of that study. Thanks H L

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Seems like Steve Fielder wrote about it years back.

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Mr. Meyer there was something printed exactly like HOBO stated. But then on here we get into some conversations like these and others bring good points to the table.

Mr. Meyer you can bring some of your experience to the table here for us. I know your have dealings with law enforcement dogs. Just not 100% sure which field. Drug sniffing or attack, maybe both.

When dealing with dogs and especially certain aspects of what they do. We look for natural ability. Thing is I have seen some that showed exceptional natural ability not be as good as a littermate that ended up in a better environment for development.

I am not a person that deals in theory or dreams. Yes I dream and yes, I understand the theory of how many things suppose to work. Beyond that I only deal with facts and I make the facts work several times before I consider them to be true facts. Trust me. Sticking to facts puts a person on the outside looking in, when dealing with the coon hound world. Thats why I like math, mechanical and electrical things. There is a factual reason for everything that happens in those worlds. Not emotion, feelings, shoulda, woulda or coulda.

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I got a chance to see some retrievers work this past Saturday. Hounds are bred to hunt and many have problems getting them to leave their feet when turned loose. I saw guys turn dogs loose and blow a whistle and point a certain direction and the dog and his nose located exactly what the handler was pointing him towards.

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