Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

I for one haven't even heard of this in our area but you could leave your dog at home and volintear to go judge them if you thought there was a problem !

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Registered: Jun 2012
Location: McRae Ar
Posts: 3701

All John is saying is it takes away the random draw and leaves it open for manipulation. The thing is they did not suddenly become crooked when they turned 55. We know the ones that can be trusted and the ones that cant.

The flip side to it is the older hunters are more likely to withdraw if their dogs are not preforming. Thats not the man that is left in the cast fault.

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Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Gilman City Mo.
Posts: 122

quote:

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Originally posted by John D
Stop and think about it. If someone is capable of coming up with a scheme like this, do you really think they will hunt the remaining dog for 2 hours and go by the rules?

A nonhunting judge will make them do that and will also make them really MAD. But it still doesn't prevent them from picking a dog ahead of time to hunt solo for 2 hours. Even an average dog can come in with a good score, hunting alone for 2 hours in his own spots.

So, its still not a level playing field with the other casts which is why denying their entry is also an option supported by UKC.

Again, I'm not saying this happens a lot and crooks come in all ages. But I sure wish someone had given my club this warning, some time back....

I suppose something like this could happen in other casts but typically there are too many dogs entered and the entries are too unpredictable to set up a cast like this. The only way I could see it happening is if you only have 3-4 entries, the same ones, at several hunts. In that case they might get together to decide who gets a win, but what would be the point? If there is one cast, one of them should get a win every time, anyway. All it would take to ruin the scheme is for one of them to think he might have a coondog and can beat those other guys, heads up, by the rules. Regardless, I've personally never seen that attempted.

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Registered: Jul 2007
Location: WESTERN MARYLAND
Posts: 5948

GUYS THERE ARE GOOD AND BAD IN EVERYTHING WE DO. THERE IS ALWAYS SOMEONE TRYING TO GET AN EDGE AND CHEAT!! THE MAJORITY I HOPE ARE HONEST GUYS. JUST SOMETHING WE HAVE TO LIVE WITH AND TAKE CARE OF WHEN IT COMES UP.

JMO, AND GOODLUCK TO ALL.

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Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Gilman City Mo.
Posts: 122

quote:

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Originally posted by rmcmillan
GUYS THERE ARE GOOD AND BAD IN EVERYTHING WE DO. THERE IS ALWAYS SOMEONE TRYING TO GET AN EDGE AND CHEAT!! THE MAJORITY I HOPE ARE HONEST GUYS. JUST SOMETHING WE HAVE TO LIVE WITH AND TAKE CARE OF WHEN IT COMES UP.

JMO, AND GOODLUCK TO ALL.

---

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: northcarolina
Posts: 490

"Obviously this isn't a level playing field if you have others who were subject to the luck of the draw, slugging it out in other casts."
"LOOK at seniors cast , not all are this way but in our area this is how some seniors WIN. You draw out in your night champion cast, a senior cast of three are entered . You come in with a cast win,the senior cast winner has a bigger score so he wins NT CH 1st place. then you here that 2 of the senior cast members withdrew,never turned there dogs loose, which means the winning dog got to hunt by himself for the 2hr. hunt, no compatition."

What if the other dogs withdrew or were scratched in your Nt Ch cast & you won Nt Ch ?
What if another Nt Ch cast beat you by scoring a slick tree ?
I guess the senior cast got cheated

You guys are comparing apples to apples here

IF IF !! a club has a problem with seniors manipulating a cast as described, the club should handle it with a un-affiliated non-hunting judge or other sanction.
The clubs in our area would like to welcome all & have a whole bunch of seniors come to hunt

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

This is where I stand in 2000 I fell of a scaffold broke my back got a titanium disc blowed both knees bounced back from that loved to compete still a lot of the young boys couldn't keep up with me. (I hate a lazy dog and were I live a dog has to go hunting to be productive ) I am 56 years old last year broke my ankle got a plate and 10 screws in it and a lot of my generation are in the same boat we didn't set around playing x box. Eating pizza pockets we worked the old saying goes don't judge a man till you walked a mile in his shoes the senior cast gives people the right age with impairments to still enjoy the the sport especially our veterans that have made the sacrifice so that you can enjoy this sport to start with yes as you can tell I am offended that the younger gen would lump the seniors in the same pile as the cheaters maybe some of some of you need to really rethink what your saying this sport has enough room for everyone ( and that's all I got to say about that)!!!!!!!!

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22462

There are a lot of ways to manipulate a cast and they don't have anything to do with how old you are. Cheaters cheat no matter what their age is. Some 20 yr olds manipulate casts and cheat. Do you want clubs to send non-hunting judges out with them? Maybe we should send non-hunting judges out with every cast. But then we would just have to worry about the non-hunting judges cheating. Quit pickin on the poor old guys.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Missouri
Posts: 4321

Tell me where someone is lumping all seniors in with cheaters or picking on all the old guys? Its a simple point, but you just don't get it. Amazing.

Yes, anyone can cheat. Generally, HONEST club officials, MOH's, and judges try to keep a step ahead of that regardless of age or anything else. That's what this is about.

If you want to go off chasing rabbits, then go do it, but my point is about some folks finding another way to take the HONOR out of Nite Hunt Honor Rules. 6 months ago I sure wish someone had told our club what could happen so we would have been better prepared. It turns out a couple other clubs in the area have had almost the same situation but we weren't aware of it. Anybody responsible for running a clean event should be more interested in details than denial.

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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

Senior casts are not random draws, they are fixed draws. The other casts ARE random draws. That is all I am saying. Forget the cheating/ not cheating, I'm not talking about cheating. I'm talking about EVERYONE hunting against the dogs they draw EXCEPT one group that hunts against the cast that is PICKED.

I'm a senior, I can barely even hunt anymore and I'd quit before I'd ever ask for any special consideration. If I hunt, I'll hunt against whoever I draw or I'll stay tha hell in tha kitchen where I belong.

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

In the same case ( I have had this happen to me ) your in a group of younger hunters your dog gets first strike and first tree your having trouble keeping up with the cast you ask them to slow down a couple of times because they are running. You get to the tree they inform you your dog moved and come back coons there plus them minus you I withdraw they almost wee. Wee they are so happy they run a deer the rest of the hunt only coon they treed one dog gets first off of it I just took it on the chin but that's how the random draw works lol

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Registered: Jul 2007
Location: WESTERN MARYLAND
Posts: 5948

TRY AND GET MORE OLDER GUYS TO COME AND HUNT THEN THEY WILL HAVE TO DRAW THEM OUT. HAD A FOURTH GUY TO THAT CAST, THEN WHAT WILL BE THE GRIPE? THEY LEFT HANDLER A CALL FIRST ALL THE TIME, SO HE COULD SCORE HIGH. THEN CALL RIGHT BEHIND HIM TO KEEP HONEST MAD DOWN. ALL KINDS OF WAYS TO DO IT.

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22462

quote:

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Originally posted by John D
Clubs need to be aware that its very easy to abuse the senior cast provision.......Clubs need to watch their entries and their conduct, closely.

---

.........

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22462

quote:

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Originally posted by John D
......I have not seen anything like this attempted on regular casts, ever.......

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............. ...........

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Registered: Jan 2004
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 38

quote:

---

Originally posted by yadkintar
This is where I stand in 2000 I fell of a scaffold broke my back got a titanium disc blowed both knees bounced back from that loved to compete still a lot of the young boys couldn't keep up with me. (I hate a lazy dog and were I live a dog has to go hunting to be productive ) I am 56 years old last year broke my ankle got a plate and 10 screws in it and a lot of my generation are in the same boat we didn't set around playing x box. Eating pizza pockets we worked the old saying goes don't judge a man till you walked a mile in his shoes the senior cast gives people the right age with impairments to still enjoy the the sport especially our veterans that have made the sacrifice so that you can enjoy this sport to start with yes as you can tell I am offended that the younger gen would lump the seniors in the same pile as the cheaters maybe some of some of you need to really rethink what your saying this sport has enough room for everyone ( and that's all I got to say about that)!!!!!!!!

---

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Lockridge Iowa
Posts: 2844

quote:

---

Originally posted by John D
Stop and think about it. If someone is capable of coming up with a scheme like this, do you really think they will hunt the remaining dog for 2 hours and go by the rules?

A nonhunting judge will make them do that and will also make them really MAD.

---

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

When I first started after you made ntch you had non hunting judges clubs would have trouble with enough available people to furnish them now days but like I said before you could always leave your dog at home and go judge them if you think there was a problem ( I know I would )!!!!!

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Registered: Jul 2006
Location: Montrose, IL.
Posts: 122

Typically I think the older hunters have been there and done that so why would they have a desire to start cheating. If you want to complain about something complain about the young people that thinks they have to run to a tree leaving everyone else behind.
You people complaining remember who you used to hunt with 25 - 40 years ago that just come to visit now because they can't keep up with the racehorses.
With some luck you might live long enough to be broke down and have health issues years down the road and remember about complaining about the old guys that still love to compete, but can't.

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Registered: May 2005
Location: oklahoma
Posts: 5035

THEM OLD CHEETERS THATS WHY THEY WHEN EVERYTHING

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Registered: Dec 2010
Location:
Posts: 178

quote:

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Originally posted by John D
Clubs need to be aware that its very easy to abuse the senior cast provision.

For example, a senior can enter his dog, plus 2 other seniors of his choosing. The host club is obligated to provide a senior cast, even if it means there will be an extra cast in the category.

When they get to the woods, IF they even go to the woods, 2 of the seniors will withdraw, leaving the dog they want the win on, to hunt by itself for 2 hours.

Obviously this isn't a level playing field if you have others who were subject to the luck of the draw, slugging it out in other casts.

UKC has told our club that if this happens we have every right to put a nonhunting judge on the cast or deny the entries of those involved.

Clubs need to watch their entries and their conduct, closely.

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Registered: Jul 2008
Location: BOONEVILLE KY.
Posts: 931

Ronnie i am holding back as long as i can for these 15 to 25 year olds think they know it all when in reality when they get 45 years old or older they will realize they did not know nothing when they were younger.

How can you even make a comment about a senior cast when you have never been on one thats like the pot calling the kettle black.

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

I have a group of guys probobly 20 or 25 of them that I have hunted against for thirty years not a one of them ever wanted a win they did not deserve a lot of the younger bunch don't care how they win just as long as they win you can't blame the older guys for not wanting to be a part of that!

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Missouri
Posts: 4321

quote:

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Originally posted by R Herald
What makes you think that this doesnt happen in a regular cast ? If so that means that all cast should have a non hunting judge.This seems to be pointing the finger at a senior cast being dishonest.

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Tell me how 1 person can approach the entry table and enter 3 dogs and be assured that those 3 dogs will be on one cast when there are several entries in that division? Keep in mind this is an honest run club.

I'll also add that there is some background info on this person and this dog and why they are doing this.

This is pointing a finger at a dishonest cast that was made possible due to UKC's provision for a senior cast. I know that's awful hard for most of you to understand and its alot easier to say I'm bashing seniors and argue that point, lol. I'm tired of trying to explain it to ya'.

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Lockridge Iowa
Posts: 2844

quote:

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Originally posted by Alan K.
If you want to complain about something complain about the young people that thinks they have to run to a tree leaving everyone else behind.

---

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Missouri
Posts: 4321

quote:

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Originally posted by Carl Fox
John D Needs to shut up or put up for it sounds to me like he don't own any dogs that can win in the hunts so he don't want any one in a senior cast to win either.

JEALOUSLY IS A POWERFUL WORD AND A LOT OF DIFFERENT WAYS OF GETTING AROUND TO SAYING THATS WHAT THE REAL PROBLEM IS. NUFF SAID.

---

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