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Sgraves
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Registered: Dec 2017
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Real purpose

What is the real purpose for ole deep an lonely. Who came up with having to go a mile or more before a coon is treed. The more I read, the more people I hear thatís the reason they got out of the competition side of it. I must hunt a dog that goes as far as need be. But in most circumstances is it really necessary ? Guides are getting harder to find because of it . Is that style of dog really for the better of the breed. Serious question, I know this will turn into a argument. Young people like that style, because really thatís all they know. I say that , might not be so. If the coon are there 500 to 1000 acres of land should be plenty to hold a 2 hour hunt. Thatís if the dogs are hunting an not just running looking for a hot pop up.

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Bruce m. Conkey
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Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
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.

Question Asked What is the real purpose for ole deep an lonely

In my opinion it has been kinda of like this. Over the years the hounds have changed. A good one back many years ago would still be a good one now. But all the junk is what changed how things are done.

Use to turn our dogs out and they would hunt together. They would tree coon and some would be leaders of that pack. Some would be the first to honestly strike, trail better and be the ones to tree first. This is what our hunt rules were based upon. Determining the best hound of the group.

Then the group or pack of hounds started to change. Some naturally would get away from the pack. Most of those came up with the coon while the pack stared to tree more and more slick trees. The junk factor started to creep in. They treed just because one of the dogs wanted to tree and they talked themselves into it.

No brainer which one won the hunt. The natural loner that didn't want to be part of the pack mentality of nonsense. People took notice of what won and the characteristics of the winner. Thing is. We started to migrate from the natural loner to everyone thinking they could make a loner. Many could and still can. Deep and lonely became the buzz word. Things migrated away from how it started with a few dogs with natural ability to get by themselves to everyone having one they felt that had to train to be alone. Many in the era of training the deep and alone never saw the natural deep and alone hound. The natural deep and alone hound generally also had ability to strike and tree a coon very accurately. But people with no concerns for how the dog actually operated. Wanted it to be alone. Alone in the next county even if it had no trailing ability which took it there. Alone in the next county even if it treed over there the tree was probably slick. Alone in the next county even if it barked every breath getting there. Didn't care about the dogs ability on coon. As long as it was deep and alone. They had a chance of winning. There was one line of dogs that became popular because of their ability to be alone. They were alone with ability and they won. That line has now went one of two directions which has diminished their ability. They have either been to tightly bred or watered down with other genetics. Normal course for animal genetics to take when one line becomes popular.

I am not defending the deep and lonely dog. But if you have a dog a deep and lonely dog can beat buy finally coming across a hot coon two miles away. Or if you have a dog the deep and lonely dog can beat by running junk or ghost for most of the hunt and falling off on one coon. Don't blame the deep and lonely dog. Get a better dog yourself. One that hunts and uses its own ability and own mind to tree a coon. Doesn't pay attention to the junk but doesn't run from them either. Then you have a coondog.

One of them alone dogs that will always be in my memory bank. Was Pee Dee Casey. Think the owners name was Randal Coleman from SC and Pee Dee River area. Guided and Judged that dog back in the 80's in the NKC world hunt. That dog was alone all night and treed three coon. My dog and the other two dogs packed all night and had several slicks. Casey didn't hunt miles away but he stayed alone and had the coon when he treed. First dog I saw that actually hunted to hard for my liking. Was Adios Eagle. He was the only dog I hunted with that out hunted the distance of our old telemetry systems. Eagle hunted to hard for me but won two National Championships. He sure pleased someone.

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Last edited by Bruce m. Conkey on 07-18-2019 at 03:28 PM

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Ed Mauney
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Agree

For what its worth I agree Mr. Bruce.

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Old Post 07-18-2019 03:23 PM
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Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
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Why can't we have close and alone dogs? Why do they have to be a mile deep?
Smart handlers at some point figured out that if their dog was too slow to be first then he had to be alone. So they started "training" them to be alone. Then there were some smart handlers that figured out that the way to beat the slick treeing idiots of the time was to be by themselves with a coon. Then along about this time, handlers started wanting dogs that hunted deeper. So they started breeding and training them to have no return. But as with every change, there are unintended consequences. In this case it was the deep and alone dogs when you combined the two. :
Breeders are so good that sometimes they go too far. At one point, they decided that dogs needed more "tree". They kept on until most dogs were slick treeing idiots. They have done the same with deep hunting. Maybe it is time to rein them back in some.

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Bruce m. Conkey
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Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
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.

Richard you can. Just makes it harder because the others follow them. I want mine alone if their ability to trail and tree a real live coon separates them for those that don't have the same ability and decide to tree somewhere else.

If the other dogs follow a dog doing the correct thing. So what. Then it's the handlers responsibility to know their dog and get it treed.

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Hoosier Man1
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Guys are scared to death to take a 2nd tree these days. Almost to the point where they feel it unethical to tree behind another dog.

Also, the other reason is they can't accept the fact that the dog they are hunting is not as fast on track as most. So, they scold and whoop on them anytime they come in to another dog that's treed. Doing this will hide the fact they are not a good track dog by ensuring they never have to actually compete on a track with another dog.

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Richard Lambert
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In most casts that I participate in now, at least 2 and sometimes 3 or 4 of the dogs will be alone So your dog doesn't really have to be that deep anymore. And with the new format you don't need a big score to win. Maybe if we went back to the old format, it would reel those super deep dogs back in. We changed the format to fit the dogs instead of changing the dogs to fit the format.

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Bruce m. Conkey
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Location: Palatka, FL
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.

Richard you have a few grey hairs and you have seen a lot of changes over the years. Things you and I saw many moons ago are memories but they are also lessons that have a history of how this sport has changed.
Because someone isn't old or saw the development of todays hound. Doesn't mean he or she can't have a nice hound. It just means they might not fully understand the history that many old people feel is important but sometimes get bogged down in.
Us old people tend to relay a lot on genetics and a line of hounds. Young people tend to relay on the amount of electricity in their hand and boot leather on their feet.

Nothing wrong with either method if it works for a person. Millions of people travel everyday and we all get there in different types of cars. Some on planes and some on trains. Some even use Uber.

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Richard Lambert
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No one wants a good track dog anymore. They only want tree dogs. They don't even care if they open on track anymore. What have we come to? Whatever happened to sitting on a log out on the top of a big ridge listening to your dog work a track? It is all go, go, go. Now if they aren't treed in 5 minutes, it is time for a new dog. Hunters don't mind walking 20 minutes while listening to a dog that is treed, but they don't want to sit and listen to a dog work a track for 20 min.

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Redneck Mafia
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Location: Seneca, Mo
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Good point Trevor. Many are ruined by handlers who think like this. But even back in the day the dog that treed first was the one most coveted. Only difference is the others didn't mind theirs tagging along with 1st.
I'm going to flip a coin the other way and tick many off ... many guys don't like to walk! I'm pretty sure pleasure hunting they don't complain when Ol'Spot gets treed wherever because they can drive to him. Face it half our society is out of shape and has no desire to walk around the woods for 2 hours. If I were a gambler I would bet that when competition hunts began nearly all participants had no trouble walking for 3 hours now in a hour they come in worn out. Y'all can't tell me that pre-Garmin you didn't do alot of aimless wandering even in a hunt.
Face it ... many would like dogs to tree countless coons within a few hundred yards then gather them up hop in the trucks and move spots because they don't like to walk. If they were packing All That they would be treeing plenty behind Ol'Lonely and he would be a non-factor in every hunt. He's only got 8 minutes of walk time when out of hearing after being struck.
Jmo

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shadinc
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I talked to a young man recently that said he wanted his dog treed at least 8 times in a two-hour hunt. Whether he had a coon or not.

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Hoosier Man1
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quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
Good point Trevor. Many are ruined by handlers who think like this. But even back in the day the dog that treed first was the one most coveted. Only difference is the others didn't mind theirs tagging along with 1st.
I'm going to flip a coin the other way and tick many off ... many guys don't like to walk! I'm pretty sure pleasure hunting they don't complain when Ol'Spot gets treed wherever because they can drive to him. Face it half our society is out of shape and has no desire to walk around the woods for 2 hours. If I were a gambler I would bet that when competition hunts began nearly all participants had no trouble walking for 3 hours now in a hour they come in worn out. Y'all can't tell me that pre-Garmin you didn't do alot of aimless wandering even in a hunt.
Face it ... many would like dogs to tree countless coons within a few hundred yards then gather them up hop in the trucks and move spots because they don't like to walk. If they were packing All That they would be treeing plenty behind Ol'Lonely and he would be a non-factor in every hunt. He's only got 8 minutes of walk time when out of hearing after being struck.
Jmo



I see what you are saying and its a valid point. However, where you live has everything to do with this. Many parts of the country don't have the area to let dogs scatter a mile or two in different directions.

I will just give you one example. I am blessed to have very good hunting some really large sections of woods and some small. A lot of farm fields where I live.

Anymore, cast 4 dogs together and you can just about bank on the fact that the 100 acres of woods you just dumped them in one will either run the edge clear around the whole block hoping to bush one or one will run behind you crossing one or 2 roads. I don't consider this fun, and in this day and age everyone thinks people are up to no good when they see strange trucks and guys with lights walking around. It's to the point now where I don't enjoy guiding and just hope to get through the cast without having the law called.

Thank prideful men for making the dogs the way they are today. I used to be one the ones that would be embarrassed if my dog ever treed with anything. Now, I strive for the fastest track dogs and could care less where the others are at.

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BigContry
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Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
No one wants a good track dog anymore. They only want tree dogs. They don't even care if they open on track anymore. What have we come to? Whatever happened to sitting on a log out on the top of a big ridge listening to your dog work a track? It is all go, go, go. Now if they aren't treed in 5 minutes, it is time for a new dog. Hunters don't mind walking 20 minutes while listening to a dog that is treed, but they don't want to sit and listen to a dog work a track for 20 min.


Well said, I could not have said it better.

Seem like everyone on here has a world champion in their pen except me. Donald and I were hunting our two 13 month old pups. After we pull the dogs off the tree and was headed home, he said "I don't know about my pup, but your's is makeing a good one". I had to ask, what do you mean? Your pup was picking up the outs, and was first to tree! Now she aint real tight on the tree, and with my pup roaring on the tree, we both got caught up in the treeing. That sometime takes your mind away from what really happened on the whole thing. My pup was working hard, but his just has that extra something about the track and locating. If she gets tighter on the tree, look out.

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Dave Richards
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Mr. Lambert

In past years coons were scarce in these mountains and hearing a good track dog work a coon track up and tree it was a thrill for most of us. Now we have several coons and it seems like the thrill of listening to a dog working an old cold track is gone, we are wanting hot tracks and lots of trees every time we go hunting. The brag is gone from having a real track dog, now it seems like all everyone wants to know, is how many coons did you tree that night? I still enjoy a really good track dog, but there are not many around these days. Dave

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Redneck Mafia
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Registered: Aug 2013
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
In most casts that I participate in now, at least 2 and sometimes 3 or 4 of the dogs will be alone So your dog doesn't really have to be that deep anymore. And with the new format you don't need a big score to win. Maybe if we went back to the old format, it would reel those super deep dogs back in. We changed the format to fit the dogs instead of changing the dogs to fit the format.

Richard no offense but a change in giving cast wins to all plus point cast winners and making them accumulate more cast wins 7 months ago has no bearing on something that has been trending in this direction for a good 15 years?? And changing it back will fix this issue?? I don't think so.
There is one solution but to many would be against it... all strike points should be of equal value for accountability reasons only and no leash lock. Until this happens, well you all ready know the outcome.

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Preacher Tom
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Cheyenne I commented On Tyler's Old Men post that I would love to see rules that gave 50 points for any dog that opened on trail. !00 points to the first dog treed and any dog that covered him in either 2 or 3 minutes got 50 points doesn't matter the order. Only two way for the dog to be scratched, leaving a tree he is treed on or fighting. I really think you would see the best dog win under those rules. Also you would want to be sure the dog was treed before calling him treed. Just my crazy idea. It would be fun to score a few pleasure hunts this way and see what happened.

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Redneck Mafia
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Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
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quote:
Originally posted by Preacher Tom
Cheyenne I commented On Tyler's Old Men post that I would love to see rules that gave 50 points for any dog that opened on trail. !00 points to the first dog treed and any dog that covered him in either 2 or 3 minutes got 50 points doesn't matter the order. Only two way for the dog to be scratched, leaving a tree he is treed on or fighting. I really think you would see the best dog win under those rules. Also you would want to be sure the dog was treed before calling him treed. Just my crazy idea. It would be fun to score a few pleasure hunts this way and see what happened.

Your right the rules should fit on a post card.

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Nathan Phenix
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Registered: May 2017
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Posts: 298

Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
Richard you have a few grey hairs and you have seen a lot of changes over the years. Things you and I saw many moons ago are memories but they are also lessons that have a history of how this sport has changed.
Because someone isn't old or saw the development of todays hound. Doesn't mean he or she can't have a nice hound. It just means they might not fully understand the history that many old people feel is important but sometimes get bogged down in.
Us old people tend to relay a lot on genetics and a line of hounds. Young people tend to relay on the amount of electricity in their hand and boot leather on their feet.

Nothing wrong with either method if it works for a person. Millions of people travel everyday and we all get there in different types of cars. Some on planes and some on trains. Some even use Uber.




Now that's a post!!! First a insult throwed out bout being grey headed and old. Then a comment on the thread. I personally think we should all start posting in same fashion be lots more fun and interesting.

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DL NH
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Registered: Jan 2016
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Richard

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
No one wants a good track dog anymore. They only want tree dogs. They don't even care if they open on track anymore. What have we come to? Whatever happened to sitting on a log out on the top of a big ridge listening to your dog work a track? It is all go, go, go. Now if they aren't treed in 5 minutes, it is time for a new dog. Hunters don't mind walking 20 minutes while listening to a dog that is treed, but they don't want to sit and listen to a dog work a track for 20 min.


I can tell you're my kind of coon hunter/houndsmen! If I lived closer I'd love to come see your hounds go. Never owned a redbone but that wouldn't stop me from owning one if I was looking and it had the things I like to see in a coon hound. I got no use for a tight mouthed or silent dog. Nothing wrong with them if that's what you like. I enjoy hearing a dog work out an old track and telling me a story while it's doing it. Then that moment of silence just before the locate followed by the tree song. Some of the sweetest country music a coon hunter will ever hear!

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G.W. Harring
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Registered: Nov 2016
Location: Nebraska
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quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
Your right the rules should fit on a post card.

Jen & Preacher Tom said it ALL!!

And yes, it IS just that simple.

(2) POINT SYSTEM
(a) 100 points for dog that "opens" first;...Pfffff REALLY?!?

Is there any wonder why we have babble'n ghost chasers & loose lip backers with a strike rule that promotes it?

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rrekab
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Registered: Feb 2019
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Posts: 10

Your right the rules should fit on a post card

Agree 100%! Much less intimidating for those just getting started in competition hunts or simply those not eager to argue or have to vote on every other drop. I believe many hunters attend hunts for the fellowship, friendships, and trying to get a feel for how one's dog stacks up against others. Once you throw in all these confusing rules and knowing you will probably draw an expert on knowing the rules, well it's no longer a "Pleasure" to participate. Competition coon hunting is a gradual dying activity, why try and speed it up? Full disclosure: I have coon hunted for a long time but haven't competition hunted for about 20 years for what it's worth. Outside looking in so-to-speak.

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Redneck Mafia
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Re: Your right the rules should fit on a post card

quote:
Originally posted by rrekab
Agree 100%! Much less intimidating for those just getting started in competition hunts or simply those not eager to argue or have to vote on every other drop. I believe many hunters attend hunts for the fellowship, friendships, and trying to get a feel for how one's dog stacks up against others. Once you throw in all these confusing rules and knowing you will probably draw an expert on knowing the rules, well it's no longer a "Pleasure" to participate. Competition coon hunting is a gradual dying activity, why try and speed it up? Full disclosure: I have coon hunted for a long time but haven't competition hunted for about 20 years for what it's worth. Outside looking in so-to-speak.

Cheyenne submitted several of the rules proposals that simplify or eliminate several rules. BUT they call it a rule CHANGE proposal not a rules re-write. If ever asked or he ever wins the lottery and could afford to buy out a major kennel club his rules would fit on that post card and would eliminate probably 75% of what is in them today. It would be like a fast paced pleasure hunt with the scoring turn them loose and see who trees the most first.

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Seneca , MO
(417)317-4815
GRNITECH PKC SCH REDNECK MAFIA
GRCH GRNITECH PKC GCH REDNECK BACKWOODS SHACK
2014 OK STATE CH, 2015 MO PKC LEADER, 2016 PKC NATIONALS SEMI-FINALIST. 2016 UKC TOP 20. 2O17 UKC WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP 3RD PLACE. 2018 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4. 2018 MO PKC STATE CHAMPION
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Old Post 07-19-2019 05:02 AM
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pamjohnson
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 1626

Re: Your right the rules should fit on a post card

quote:
Originally posted by rrekab
Agree 100%! Much less intimidating for those just getting started in competition hunts or simply those not eager to argue or have to vote on every other drop. I believe many hunters attend hunts for the fellowship, friendships, and trying to get a feel for how one's dog stacks up against others. Once you throw in all these confusing rules and knowing you will probably draw an expert on knowing the rules, well it's no longer a "Pleasure" to participate. Competition coon hunting is a gradual dying activity, why try and speed it up? Full disclosure: I have coon hunted for a long time but haven't competition hunted for about 20 years for what it's worth. Outside looking in so-to-speak.
very well said especially for someone who has not been in a competition hunt in 20 years. Everyone should read and reread this. Much can be learned and be thought about.

Last edited by pamjohnson on 07-19-2019 at 02:16 PM

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Old Post 07-19-2019 02:10 PM
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shadinc
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 2026

Re: Re: Your right the rules should fit on a post card

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
Cheyenne submitted several of the rules proposals that simplify or eliminate several rules. BUT they call it a rule CHANGE proposal not a rules re-write. If ever asked or he ever wins the lottery and could afford to buy out a major kennel club his rules would fit on that post card and would eliminate probably 75% of what is in them today. It would be like a fast paced pleasure hunt with the scoring turn them loose and see who trees the most first.
Would you have to win the lottery to do this? Have an invitational hunt and print the "postcard" rules on the invitation. See who wants to come and how much they enjoy it.

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Old Post 07-19-2019 04:11 PM
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Redneck Mafia
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 3921

Re: Re: Re: Your right the rules should fit on a post card

quote:
Originally posted by shadinc
Would you have to win the lottery to do this? Have an invitational hunt and print the "postcard" rules on the invitation. See who wants to come and how much they enjoy it.

Actually we plan on having an invitational hunt in the not so far off future but that does nothing in the real competition world.
How many of you have friendly pleasure/competion hunts when out with friends? You know who treed the most coons and first. You don't reward your dog when it does mediocre or bad work.

__________________
Cheyenne & Jennifer Cummings
Seneca , MO
(417)317-4815
GRNITECH PKC SCH REDNECK MAFIA
GRCH GRNITECH PKC GCH REDNECK BACKWOODS SHACK
2014 OK STATE CH, 2015 MO PKC LEADER, 2016 PKC NATIONALS SEMI-FINALIST. 2016 UKC TOP 20. 2O17 UKC WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP 3RD PLACE. 2018 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4. 2018 MO PKC STATE CHAMPION
GRNITECH CH PKC CH REDNECK SHACK ATTACK aka TAC 2018 OKLAHOMA STATE CHAMPION

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