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yadkintar
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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

The breeding of dogs today.

Was it a well planned out map of the bloodlines we have today.


Or do we just have a dukes mixture of mixed up genetics with no real planning involved.



Tar

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Old Post 12-26-2019 01:04 PM
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Ron Ashbaugh
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Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Mercer PA
Posts: 4821

Plan?? I think everyone has a "plan", but when the chips all fall these plans come to fruition a very low % of time. If you are serious about raising a good pup the best think you can do is buy one from two reproducing parents from a reproducing line, period, and even then your chances aren't great.

Reading papers, stacking pedigrees, ect are great to look at, but unless you have first hand experience with those dogs or experience with what they have reproduced, all your doing is hoping...and waiting for a year at a pop and lots of money and lots of time to find out it didn't work.

People have been trying to master the art of breeding good coondogs since coonhunting started. When you really look at the % of successful crosses compared to The ones that produced, zero, 1, or 2 good dogs it's blatently obvious that a zillion plans didn't work. Great to talk about and think about...but really great dogs come from all over and you gotta kiss a lot of frogs if you want something special

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Old Post 12-26-2019 01:31 PM
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Driftwoodblue
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Registered: Aug 2011
Location: Emporia, Kansas
Posts: 372

Challenge

Ron just said a whole lot and then I Gotta add getting the good pups in the hands of people that will give them a chance in the woods is sometimes a challenge!

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Old Post 12-26-2019 01:44 PM
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yadkintar
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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
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Kissing frogs lol !!

I understand that I was looking at my young dogs papers and seen several dogs in there that several years ago I wouldn’t have bred to on a bet. But to get the cross I wanted I had to bite the bullet and make the cross to get the one dog I wanted. I mean you make a cross on the walkers and there are about 4 dogs your going to get wheather you want them or not. Bad thing is I think he is going to make one of the best dogs I have owned. But do to me getting my crosses to close he only has one dingelberry and it’s small and he probly won’t be able to reproduce.



Every dog I look at has the same stuff I got multiple times.


Tar

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Old Post 12-26-2019 01:44 PM
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Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22460

Tarbaby, which is the best cross? One that produces 5 titled dogs out of 10 or one that only produces 1 titled dog but it is a World Champion? With the first cross 5 people are going to be happy but with the second cross only 1 person is going to be happy.

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Old Post 12-26-2019 02:43 PM
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Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22460

Re: Kissing frogs lol !!

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
...... Bad thing is I think he is going to make one of the best dogs I have owned.
Every dog I look at has the same stuff I got multiple times.
Tar



Tarbaby, you say that you have one of the best dogs that you have ever owned but it sounds like you are complaining about it. I don't understand. What does it take to satisfy you, a perfect dog? We all know that they don't exist.

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Old Post 12-26-2019 02:49 PM
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Cotton 1927
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Registered: Mar 2016
Location: Central,illinois
Posts: 569

Dogs

IMO dogs,back in the pedigree have very little impact on pups unless it's heavily stacked, but I also think most pups don't reach there full potential because of the owner and lack of hunting, environment , to many dogs,etc...

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Old Post 12-26-2019 02:50 PM
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yadkintar
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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Tarbaby, which is the best cross? One that produces 5 titled dogs out of 10 or one that only produces 1 titled dog but it is a World Champion? With the first cross 5 people are going to be happy but with the second cross only 1 person is going to be happy.



I would go for the cross that high percentage of the pups satisfied their owners. And yes at my age it probly don’t matter if he can get more pups or not I am just going to enjoy him.


Tar

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Old Post 12-26-2019 02:59 PM
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Ron Ashbaugh
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Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Mercer PA
Posts: 4821

I've not had a pile of great dogs in my life, but I've had a pile of dogs. If I've learned one thing it's ENJOY the good ones to the fullest while you have them. Start worrying about the next one when you need the next one. I've gone down that road of starting new ones while the good one sat...wish I had all that time with the good one back. I'm certainly not worried about developing a line, I'm just a guy that likes to tree a coon.

The search for great can be the enemy of the good.

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Old Post 12-26-2019 05:29 PM
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Clovis A Nailor
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Registered: Dec 2019
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 246

Mike Tyson once said everyone got a plan until they get hit in the mouth. And I would think we all have been hit in the mouth, when trying to breed the next best thing. In my opinion the cross breed program will help alot. The beagle boys don't separate their dogs by color.

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Old Post 12-26-2019 06:22 PM
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Richard Lambert
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Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22460

I wonder just how many breeders will get hit in the mouth by an off breed cross? I got hit in the mouth 20 yrs ago and I still remember it.

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Old Post 12-26-2019 06:24 PM
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Clovis A Nailor
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Registered: Dec 2019
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Posts: 246

They got a little half breed redbone female busting them up in Louisiana right now.

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Old Post 12-26-2019 06:33 PM
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Donnie Stevens
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Registered: Jul 2004
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 2765

quote:
Originally posted by Ron Ashbaugh


The search for great can be the enemy of the good.



You just summed up the last 30 of my coon hunting career lol. I've had a bunch of good dogs but by the time their second season is thru I've found something I don't like and can't fix so I sell them and start over. Next one is always different but not necessarily better. I haven't yet been able to convince myself to be satisfied with a good one. I'm searching for near perfection and although I know I'm not gonna find it....I'm still trying.

On the upside it has allowed me to work with many more dogs then I would've if I had of kept the good ones and hunted them til they died of old age, and I've made many new owners happy with the dogs I've sold.

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Old Post 12-26-2019 06:49 PM
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Dave Richards
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Registered: Apr 2015
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Posts: 5612

Mr. Lambert

There is a big difference in s man that breeds dogs for his own use and a man that breeds dogs to sell to Others. A man breeding for his own use would be thrilled to get one dog out of a litter that made a World Champion or outstanding pleasure dog. While a man breeding to sell pups would be very happy if several of the pups just made good dogs. A man breeding for his own use will take chances that a man selling pups to Others would not take. I think most breeders are more interested in selling pups than finding that 1 great dog out of multiply litters. Dave

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Old Post 12-26-2019 09:25 PM
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Hittman
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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Thackerville Ok
Posts: 202

Re: Dave

Dave agree
Iam breeding for a world champion. It may take a few tries and lots of aggravating nights iam sure. That's my goal is to at least go and hunt in the world. Win or lose I would be happy.

I also want to start my own breeding program. It will take time and errors iam sure. But iam determined to get there.

And a plus getting to meet really good poeple along the way that have the love for hounds like I do.

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Old Post 12-26-2019 10:05 PM
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Clovis A Nailor
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Registered: Dec 2019
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 246

Mine are not the best by no means I get aggravated at their performance alot. But they get plenty of coons treed. I never use a leash I can call them off a tree with a kitten coon 10 feet above their head. Tell them to go to the 4 wheeler and they will be waiting for me there. They don't bark in my pen. When I get ready to load them I just open the gate and they load themselves. They don't shut the door to the dog box though we working on that. I've been told by lots of people I have the best handling dogs they ever seen. And a good handling dog that trees coons means alot to me at my age anyway.

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Old Post 12-27-2019 11:35 AM
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Hittman
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Posts: 202

quote:
Originally posted by Clovis A Nailor
Mine are not the best by no means I get aggravated at their performance alot. But they get plenty of coons treed. I never use a leash I can call them off a tree with a kitten coon 10 feet above their head. Tell them to go to the 4 wheeler and they will be waiting for me there. They don't bark in my pen. When I get ready to load them I just open the gate and they load themselves. They don't shut the door to the dog box though we working on that. I've been told by lots of people I have the best handling dogs they ever seen. And a good handling dog that trees coons means alot to me at my age anyway.


Agree. I enjoy a easy handling dog. Not one slobbering at the mouth wild and crazy.

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Old Post 12-27-2019 02:13 PM
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DL NH
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Registered: Jan 2016
Location:
Posts: 586

quote:
Originally posted by Ron Ashbaugh
The search for great can be the enemy of the good.


Very wise man wrote the above! Truth that is only gained by the ups and downs of owning hounds. Took me awhile to learn this simple truth! Always chasing after that better than what ya got hound can easily leave you empty handed and maybe even broken hearted!

If you have a good hound that consistently produces game and isn't a PIA to have around when it's not hunting ya might want to think long and hard before ya send it down the road! Been there!

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Old Post 12-27-2019 03:19 PM
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Ron Ashbaugh
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Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Mercer PA
Posts: 4821

quote:
Originally posted by Donnie Stevens
You just summed up the last 30 of my coon hunting career lol. I've had a bunch of good dogs but by the time their second season is thru I've found something I don't like and can't fix so I sell them and start over. Next one is always different but not necessarily better. I haven't yet been able to convince myself to be satisfied with a good one. I'm searching for near perfection and although I know I'm not gonna find it....I'm still trying.

On the upside it has allowed me to work with many more dogs then I would've if I had of kept the good ones and hunted them til they died of old age, and I've made many new owners happy with the dogs I've sold.



There is absolutely nothing wrong with this! The "quest" is the adventure of the game...til it isn't. I think this process evolves in a hunters life...kinda like dating. When your young and full of energy, you have the ambition to keep dating new people and searching for that perfect one....then one day you meet one heck of a nice girl. Is she perfect? Unlikely, none of us are, but at the end of the day she is perfect for me and I'm unwilling to trade in that good woman for a unpredictable chance at perfect.

Dogs like women or men can't be "mr. Potatoe head" where you can swap out parts and pieces to create the ideal. Sometimes you have to know when it's time to accept good or as good as your personal motivation and personal currency can afford. That time is different for everyone and only time can tell you when that time is.

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Ron Ashbaugh
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Old Post 12-27-2019 05:36 PM
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Dave Richards
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Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 5612

Dan and Ron

I agree with the wisdom both of you are sharing, I have hunted over 50 years and always tried to own the very best dog I could find. During this time, I have only owned and hunted with 4 to 5 dogs that I called top coon dogs. I have owned and hunted with a lot of decent coon dogs that were fun to hunt with. If nothing but a top coon dog will suit a man, he is going to be disappointed most of the time. I even remember a couple of just average coon dogs that I liked pretty good because of the overall package they brought to the table. A top coon dog is rare indeed, but decent to good dogs can be found most of the time. Dave

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Old Post 12-27-2019 05:44 PM
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Reuben
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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1903

Re: The breeding of dogs today.

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Was it a well planned out map of the bloodlines we have today.



Tar



If I were a young man looking for a top coon hound prospect I would be looking at the pedigrees that had the most champions listed...but many guys on here say that does not guarantee getting a good pup...BUT IT SHOULD BE A GOOD PLACE TO START...Because that is part of the foundation...so if it isn’t a good place to start looking then something is broke and needs fixing...

in my mind pedigrees stacked with all types of champions
should mean that those dogs were good coon dogs...and good coon dogs should have good genetics...these genetics should pass on so there should be a high percentage of good pups produced...what I’m saying is that if the dog has a championship title it should mean he or she is a good dog...

Maybe the competition rules need changing so that the best dogs win more often than not...then this will improve consistency in the production of quality pups and dogs over time...

Like already mentioned there are other variables involved such as inexperienced hunters, lack of hunting land available, lack of proper environment...but these really aren’t genetic issues but lack of opportunities in bringing out the best in a pup...

Some folks will make bad breeding choices at times for several reasons...some things can be changed others will remain as ongoing challenges...

What we have today is quick and fast communications thru internet and dog forums where we shares experiences and knowledge and hopefully this will improve the working and hunting dogs as well...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Old Post 12-28-2019 10:26 AM
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yadkintar
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Posts: 10790

Re: Re: The breeding of dogs today.

quote:
Originally posted by Reuben
If I were a young man looking for a top coon hound prospect I would be looking at the pedigrees that had the most champions listed...but many guys on here say that does not guarantee getting a good pup...BUT IT SHOULD BE A GOOD PLACE TO START...Because that is part of the foundation...so if it isn’t a good place to start looking then something is broke and needs fixing...

in my mind pedigrees stacked with all types of champions
should mean that those dogs were good coon dogs...and good coon dogs should have good genetics...these genetics should pass on so there should be a high percentage of good pups produced...what I’m saying is that if the dog has a championship title it should mean he or she is a good dog...

Maybe the competition rules need changing so that the best dogs win more often than not...then this will improve consistency in the production of quality pups and dogs over time...

Like already mentioned there are other variables involved such as inexperienced hunters, lack of hunting land available, lack of proper environment...but these really aren’t genetic issues but lack of opportunities in bringing out the best in a pup...

Some folks will make bad breeding choices at times for several reasons...some things can be changed others will remain as ongoing challenges...

What we have today is quick and fast communications thru internet and dog forums where we shares experiences and knowledge and hopefully this will improve the working and hunting dogs as well...




Reuben most folks just get caught up in the my gyp is in heat and your dog is only 10 miles away and they got good papers. That’s why a lot of people eat fast food all the time it’s convenient.



Tar

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Old Post 12-28-2019 12:25 PM
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Kler Kry
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2009
Location: Monticello, Wi
Posts: 744

Re: Re: The breeding of dogs today.

quote:
Originally posted by Reuben
If I were a young man looking for a top coon hound prospect I would be looking at the pedigrees that had the most champions listed...but many guys on here say that does not guarantee getting a good pup...BUT IT SHOULD BE A GOOD PLACE TO START...Because that is part of the foundation...so if it isn’t a good place to start looking then something is broke and needs fixing...

in my mind pedigrees stacked with all types of champions
should mean that those dogs were good coon dogs...and good coon dogs should have good genetics...these genetics should pass on so there should be a high percentage of good pups produced...what I’m saying is that if the dog has a championship title it should mean he or she is a good dog...

Maybe the competition rules need changing so that the best dogs win more often than not...then this will improve consistency in the production of quality pups and dogs over time...

Like already mentioned there are other variables involved such as inexperienced hunters, lack of hunting land available, lack of proper environment...but these really aren’t genetic issues but lack of opportunities in bringing out the best in a pup...

Some folks will make bad breeding choices at times for several reasons...some things can be changed others will remain as ongoing challenges...

What we have today is quick and fast communications thru internet and dog forums where we shares experiences and knowledge and hopefully this will improve the working and hunting dogs as well...



The largest variable to improving any livestock is evaluation of potential mates. Computers are only as good as the inputs and the inputs are more theory than fact.
My willingness to believe my fellow hounds men has resulted in more breeding failures than when I actually hunted the potential mates and their offspring, before making a cross.
We all evaluate hounds with a different set of priorities and this will always be.
If you don't enjoy the journey then you better not start the trip as the your destination may not exceed your expectations. Ken Risley

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Old Post 12-28-2019 05:30 PM
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Clovis A Nailor
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Registered: Dec 2019
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 246

The problem with Coonhounds is people. They don't put the time needed in hunting that dog. If you have a litter of 8 pups and put each pup in the hands of real coonhunters I do believe you would be surprised at the results. My brother had a dog that didn't show any interest in a coon till it was 3 years old. Now how many people would fool with a dog like that. And if you have a Walker dog you most likely have that dog in your pedigree.

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Old Post 12-28-2019 09:20 PM
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Clovis A Nailor
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Registered: Dec 2019
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 246

When I was a kid I had 3 dogs that followed me everywhere. One was a husky one was a labrador and one was a miniature poodle. All 3 would be considered top squirrel dogs today there wasn't a nickels difference in how they treed squirrels,they just flat got some squirrels treed. Where they bred to tree squirrels. NO or was it I spent every waking moment in the woods.

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