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I know this has been discussed a few times on here, but i would like to revisit and hopefully this time it doesn’t turn into a bashing contest.

1. Why do you think treeing walkers are so prevalent in hunts?

2. Why the lack of turn out for the other breeds?

I have often wondered about these questions. And want to hear others opinions. There seems to be an astronomical amount of walkers in hunts and just one or two of all other breeds.

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They are just popular.

There are lots of other color dogs that are excellent high caliber coon dogs.

Then you hear how they always win the big hunts. Time and again. Well, ya there are millions of them. The chance that a red dog or black dog can make it through everything is just slim odds.

If you dont believe that then place your bets now for the Kentucky derby winner next year. The only thing is the horse that you bet on has to be black with 4 white socks.

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I agree with that. They are more popular, more breeding selection. Kind of like saturating the market. Lol

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They are like rear ends. Everybody has one including me. 😄

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Maybe, because they are WINNERS. I don't subscribe to the large number theory that folks use to say that's why they win so much. I subscribe to the theory that the large number of Walkers is because they WIN so much. It only takes one if Any breed that's good enough to win against 99 of the other breed, numbers mean nothing without results. Results are what matters and results produce numbers. How any why there are so many Walker dogs are simple facts, they Win hunts with product the kind of coon dogs that the majority of folks want. Otherwise, it would be some other breed with the large numbers. Yes, they are top coon hounds in all breeds, but the Walkers dominate as a breed. I have 6 hounds 5 Walkers and 1 English for a reason, if so could find other breeds that suit me, I would own them. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dave Richards
Maybe, because they are WINNERS. I don't subscribe to the large number theory that folks use to say that's why they win so much. I subscribe to the theory that the large number of Walkers is because they WIN so much. It only takes one if Any breed that's good enough to win against 99 of the other breed, numbers mean nothing without results. Results are what matters and results produce numbers. How any why there are so many Walker dogs are simple facts, they Win hunts with product the kind of coon dogs that the majority of folks want. Otherwise, it would be some other breed with the large numbers. Yes, they are top coon hounds in all breeds, but the Walkers dominate as a breed. I have 6 hounds 5 Walkers and 1 English for a reason, if so could find other breeds that suit me, I would own them. Dave

---

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Plain and simple walker dogs have all the chrome compared to other breeds.

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By nature I tend to be a theories man...I have asked myself this same question about the walkers...I do not have any theories on the other hound breeds...

I went back and read the beginnings of the walker breed on account of their popularity and because of them dominating the competition hunts...

The theory...the early breeders did not take shortcuts nor did they care about expenses...they traveled many a mile to pick up or buy the right dog...or even to breed to the right dog...even though many years and generations have passed this great foundation was set in those years...by the sounds of it these were true dog men who knew what a great hunting dog was...with true dog men...it is not about the money...it’s about the dogs...

That’s my theory and I’m sticking to it...

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In the beginning the Walker, English and Blueticks were in the same mix, over time they separated into the 3 different breeds. They all shared common bloodlines to start, selective breeding has produced different traits within the breeds as we know them today. You still see individual dogs within these breeds that exhibit the traits of another breed. When breeding the best to the best was curtailed in favor of a breed standard, some breeds just did not progress to the level of other breeds as a whole. They are outstanding dogs in each of the breeds, just more in the Walker breed as a whole. The x breed program is a good way of a dedicated breeder to combine the outstanding dogs if one breed with the outstanding dogs of another breed, much like in the old days. Hard time speck, a walker dog put new blood in the English line several years ago when a speckled up Walker dog could be registered as an English. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

Last edited by Dave Richards on 12-18-2019 at 03:14 AM

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Thank you Dave...😎

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Reuben
By nature I tend to be a theories man...I have asked myself this same question about the walkers...I do not have any theories on the other hound breeds...

I went back and read the beginnings of the walker breed on account of their popularity and because of them dominating the competition hunts...

The theory...the early breeders did not take shortcuts nor did they care about expenses...they traveled many a mile to pick up or buy the right dog...or even to breed to the right dog...even though many years and generations have passed this great foundation was set in those years...by the sounds of it these were true dog men who knew what a great hunting dog was...with true dog men...it is not about the money...it’s about the dogs...

That’s my theory and I’m sticking to it...

---

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Your explanation tells it all, ability took a back seat to breed standards for Some breeds, things like color had NOTHING to do with ability. 50 years of family breeding only got what that family of dogs had to offer and well, the proof is in the pudding, like it or not. Selfishness, not wanting to share any credit with others, foolish beliefs, and other bad decisions put some breeds in a stagnant well. Nuff said. Dave

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First of all there are top hounds in all breeds. But that is not what you asked.
You have to take some things into consideration. The gene pool from every breed can be compared to a pond of water. 50 years ago when the ponds or gene pools were small one pebble of either good or bad had a bigger ripple effect on the pond than it does today with a big pond of genetics. The biggest effect came from some dogs of walker lines crossing over into the english lines and vice versa. Also some blue dogs and bird dogs getting into the walker lines. Where the breeds restricted to a certain color standard didn't have the benefit of more genes being added to their breed.

Also a mistake or a great find in genetic ability does not have as much impact on a breed today as it did 50 years ago.

I will also point you to some information that I always found interesting. Now these facts are not the same today as they were 30 or 40 years ago. But these facts were there for anyone to see. Back in the 80's or 90's Ukc like they do today has the top performing sires and dams listed. I will go back to the days there were 6 registered coon hound breeds in UKC. They have added a couple more today but I will stick to the six from years ago. If you took the performance list and looked and the percentages of hounds that earned titles from the top producers. It went from about 2% for plotts, 3% for redbones right on up to about 10% for Walkers. Not today and I haven't looked at one in a while but the top walker studs are probably getting close to 20%. Last time I looked I thing about 17% was tops. Any way if you listed the 6 breeds from top to bottom using the performance list with the top percentage at the top of the list and then listed the 6 breeds again in a column using the color restrictions placed them as the first dog on the list. You will see the breeds with the most color restrictions at the top of the list or at the 2 or 3% performance level. And it goes right on down to the walkers with the least amount of color restrictions at the top of the lis

Then throw in what was said here by Rednecd mafia and seconded by Richard which is behavior by the breeders that restrict their gene pool even more. And you have the answer why Walkers are more popular.

Here is the thing that also gets the walkers credit but also goes against their ability. Any inexperienced young person getting a coonhound pup. Has a better chance of the walker pup making a coonhound over a pup from another breed. They also have a bigger chance of getting a crazy acting pup. But a pup trying in the hands of a youngster/owner excites them. Even if it is trying to do the wrong things that a youngster doesn't see as wrong. Over a pup that doesn't try or the youngster can't get to bark at a coon. The young person will gain experience and they hopefully learn to cull the nonsense and have a nice hound. The road most takes usually ends up pointing to a Walker in their kennel.

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Last edited by Bruce m. Conkey on 12-18-2019 at 01:08 PM

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Like touched on by others here.
Walker men would also drive across the country to hunt with and breed to something they thought was better. Many men from other breeds would not even cross the road to breed to or hunt with another line in their breed.

I have a good friend Earl Bellemore that held positions in the redbone breed for many years. Probably starting 50 years ago. Several times over the past 50 years I was determined to get a good red dog. I would visit Earl and we would load up a bag of Redbone Year Books and I would borrow them to read. I would then start calling breeders and asking about their dogs. Things went good during that conversation until I asked about another line of redbones. Very few had anything nice to say about another breeders line of redbones. It was like you insulted them. Not the case with Walker Breeders. I have talked to many of them. Now each had their standards or thoughts on what a walker should do. But none felt they had the only line of walkers that could perform up to standards. They all knew other walker men from around the country that had the same goals with breeding. They were willing to share that information. They were also willing to seek out better genes and bring into their gene pool.

Here is also a point that needs to be thought about. Because of more Walkers. There were also more men following walkers which meant there was probably more men that misrepresented some breedings because they didn't want to loose out on a stud fee. Even with the wrong doing of some. And even though the right dog didn't get the credit for the results. It increased the breeds gene pool. I am a firm believer that an increased gene pool is the foundation a breeder has to start with to sustain his thoughts on breeding for the future. Because most breeders thoughts lead to a smaller selection of genes and after a while it catches up with them. The right outcross is very important at the right time. I would bet more have failed with very disciplined breeders than have worked.

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Last edited by Bruce m. Conkey on 12-18-2019 at 01:28 PM

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DISCLAIMER - There are examples nice, balanced, Coon treeing hounds in all 7 breeds.

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Early Walker breeders were forward thinking progressive minded folks. Walker breeders were ahead of the curve on breeding for traits that win. Track speed, hunt/hustle, independence, indifference, competitive mindset, endurance, recovery ability, etc. All traits that fit competition hunting well. They have collaborated and remained focused on performance above all else and breeding a better competition dog. Let’s face it, they have sacrificed mouth, looks, and accuracy in many cases to accomplish this. Many are overly competitive as well.
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The 6 other breeds have primarily been focused on preservation of traditional hound traits. Trailing type dogs that have big mouths that they tend to use quite often. Accuracy, color, and appearance of the dog have remained important. They have remained focused on preservation rather than progress for the most part. Nothing wrong with that if you like a traditional style hound with the looks to go with it.

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You touch on a very good point. Walker breeders have always been more open to other breeders. Back when i was running blue ticks it was hard to find someone to breed to. If it wasn’t their selected line you weren’t getting anything from them

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You guys confirmed what ALL of the older coon hunters know about the different breeds. When your breed standards exclude a top coon hound solely on color, you lose valuable genetic makeup. When a breeder is so blind to the other lines in that breed, the breed loses valuable genetic makeup. How many dogs that could have improved their own breed were never given the chance due to color faults or jealousy? Recent change in the certain colors being okay now in the Plott breed and some were screaming bloody murder at these changes. I see these types of issues as the primary cause of a breeds stagnation. White on a redbone means nothing if the dog is a coon dog, cherry red redbones mean nothing if they don't fit the bill as a coon dog. JMO. Dave

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As far as color goes, a English blutick is my favorite. But color doesn’t tree coon. There is good an bad in every breed. For the most part walker owners are not afraid to step outside the box. Yes there has been poor breeding decisions down through the years. But for me I hunt walkers because they get the job done an don’t take all night to do it. Walkers have earned a good an bad reputation. Most of that is poor breeding. Dogs like big country is a fine example that the blutick breed can compete at the top level. People are kennel blind when it comes to dogs . If you don’t push your breed of choice it will get stale.

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What big mouths in other breeds the treeing has the loudest dogs I hunted with consistently

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There are many points made, but one I don't think has been addressed yet. A big part of walkers success has to be credited to the breeders and especially the early promoters such as Mr. Nance, Mr. Merchant, Mr. Monroe, Mr. Meeks, and Mr. Ball just to name a few. These men recognized talent and worked hard to succeed with their dogs. Many targeting the highest level of the land back then ACHA World Hunts and later all the other World hunts.

Sure all the breeds have their early heroes, but the walker promoters proved to have an edge. Whether or not it was their dogs or their level of their own expectations, it really doesn't matter. It can't be denied.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Larry Atherton
There are many points made, but one I don't think has been addressed yet. A big part of walkers success has to be credited to the breeders and especially the early promoters such as Mr. Nance, Mr. Merchant, Mr. Monroe, Mr. Meeks, and Mr. Ball just to name a few. These men recognized talent and worked hard to succeed with their dogs. Many targeting the highest level of the land back then ACHA World Hunts and later all the other World hunts.

Sure all the breeds have their early heroes, but the walker promoters proved to have an edge. Whether or not it was their dogs or their level of their own expectations, it really doesn't matter. It can't be denied.

---

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It seems that some breeds have lost hunt ability to looks and conformity for bench shows. Along with the lack of crosses within the breed. One of the reasons i started this thread one i enjoy my walker hounds and two i still have a love for blue tick and English hounds. I would enjoy seeing all the breeds progress and prosper to ensure our sport continues for generations to come.

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