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Driftwoodblue
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Registered: Aug 2011
Location: Emporia, Kansas
Posts: 372

the Battery Fairy

The ‘battery fairy’ and other delusions in the demand to replace gasoline powered vehicles with electric cars and trucks

By Thomas Lifson

I continue to be amazed that serious people think that gasoline powered vehicles can be completely replaced by electric vehicles in a decade-and-a-half, and that this would be a good thing, even if possible. Under threat of government action, however, the world’s major auto manufacturers are falling in line, boosting production of plug-in models, and upstart Tesla Motors is now the world’s most valuable auto manufacturer, based on the value of its capital stock issued and in the public’s hands. Mary T. Barra, CEO of General Motors, has pledged to sell only zero emission vehicles by 2035. That would meet the deadline imposed by California Governor Gavin Newsom, who signed an executive order banning the sale of internal combustion vehicles in the nation’s largest car market by 2035.

Charging electric cars at work makes sense, as it requires several hours. But what if you want to drive on a long trip?



GM, rescued from liquidation courtesy of US taxpayers (and bondholders who were cheated out of their place in line as creditors by the Obama administration), may simply be sucking up to governmental power. But Akio Toyoda, CEO of Toyota Motors, the world’s largest (or second largest, depending on the year). and grandson of the automaker’s founder, has spoken out and called out the fallacy of thinking that this is possible or desirable. [I must here disclose that I was a consultant for a Toyota company for several years, but that all my comments on the company here are based on publicly available information.]

According to this account in CarBuzz:

As the grandson of Toyota founder, Kiichiro Toyoda, the scion was raised surrounded by all aspects of the auto industry and his business acumen is second to none. So when he had some harsh words for electric vehicles at the Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association end-of-year press conference last week, people took notice.

The Wall Street Journal was in attendance and noted the CEO's disdain for EVs boils down to his belief they'll ruin businesses, require massive investments, and even emit more carbon dioxide than combustion-engined vehicles. "The current business model of the car industry is going to collapse," he said. "The more EVs we build, the worse carbon dioxide gets… When politicians are out there saying, 'Let's get rid of all cars using gasoline,' do they understand this?"

Studies detailing the carbon emissions necessary to manufacture an electric vehicle reveal that on a net basis, there are more emissions for vehicles bought and used for its expected lifetime, than would be generated by buying and using a conventional gasoline-powered vehicle.

Toyota can certainly make electric powered vehicles. It introduced the hybrid Prius, after all, and has a strong position in that market. Toyota’s mastery of the discipline of mass production of vehicles is such that it could do well no matter what power source is used. But the costs of complete conversion to electricity-powered vehicles are mind boggling.

Where will all the electricity needed to power the entire fleet of cars in the US (or Japan) come from? Despite the fantasies of greenies, it won’t be from windmills or solar farms. They are too unreliable, take up too much land, and cost too much. Right now, it is coal and natural gas that produce the most electricity at the most reasonable cost. And they emit CO2. Plus, there is considerable loss of power due to resistance in the transmission lines, requiring an even greater amount of gross power before the net power reaches the battery in the vehicle, charging at the user’s home or some other location. Nuclear power does offer some potential, but how many people want to live near the hundreds and hundreds of nuclear power plants that would be required to fuel the nation’s vehicles?

Then there is the small matter of batteries. The very large batteries needed for electric cars use lots of expensive lithium (and some other rare elements) whose supply is limited, and whose mining requires lots of scarce water. In fact, powering the world’s vehicles by battery is simply impossible, given the limited world supply of lithium, as this clever post by Powerline’s Steve Hayward makes clear. The title gives away the punchline:

WHO WILL TELL THE GREENS THERE IS NO BATTERY FAIRY?

For the longest while I have been asking, “Where do environmentalists and Democrats think all these batteries for our oil-free transportation fleet are going to come from?” It seems they think there is a Battery Fairy out there somewhere who will magically supply the ginormous battery capacity, and additional supply of electricity to charge them, in order to deliver us to our blessed fossil-fuel-free future.

He cites an article in Wired, The Spiraling Environmental Cost of our Lithium Battery Addiction:

But there’s a problem. As the world scrambles to replace fossil fuels with clean energy, the environmental impact of finding all the lithium required to enable that transformation could become a serious issue in its own right. “One of the biggest environmental problems caused by our endless hunger for the latest and smartest devices is a growing mineral crisis, particularly those needed to make our batteries,” says Christina Valimaki an analyst at Elsevier. . .

It’s a relatively cheap and effective process, but it uses a lot of water – approximately 500,000 gallons per tonne of lithium. In Chile’s Salar de Atacama, mining activities consumed 65 per cent of the region’s water. That is having a big impact on local farmers – who grow quinoa and herd llamas – in an area where some communities already have to get water driven in from elsewhere. . .

Two other key ingredients, cobalt and nickel, are more in danger of creating a bottleneck in the move towards electric vehicles, and at a potentially huge environmental cost. Cobalt is found in huge quantities right across the Democratic Republic of Congo and central Africa, and hardly anywhere else. The price has quadrupled in the last two years.

I am glad that some grownups are pointing out that the electric vehicle conversion emperor has no clothes on. But that hasn’t stopped governments, manufacturers, and investors from pretending that electric vehicles are our only future.

As Herbert Stein famously said, "If something cannot go on forever, it will stop." We’re only beginning to discover that about pipe dreams of an all-electric vehicle future.

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Old Post 02-05-2021 01:19 PM
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Wingman66
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I got an average of 130.7 mpg with a ford fusion hybird the other day.

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tripple river
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I think lithium mining in Africa is mostly done by slaves.I would think there would be a huge outcry in America about that .liberals are always looking for a injustice to cry about but when given a actual injustice all you hear from them is crickets.more human slaves in the world now than ever in history.

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Wingman66
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Ding dong donnie dictator was planning to make Americans his slaves until he got voted out, saving you and your family. I bet you haven't thanked one single biden voter either.

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"Kim Jong-Un speaks and his people sit up at attention. I want my people to do the same.” An actual sitting US President said that. Let that sink in.

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4play
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quote:
Originally posted by Wingman66
I got an average of 130.7 mpg with a ford fusion hybird the other day.


Strip mining the planet is a great idea!!!

Keep your head in the sand and believe all the pixy dust they are blowing up your A$$

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Wingman66
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quote:
Originally posted by 4play
Strip mining the planet is a great idea!!!

Keep your head in the sand and believe all the pixy dust they are blowing up your A$$


Yeah filling the planets air with poisonous chemicals sounds better huh? Bet you won't lock your garage with your car running, will you?

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I have to say yall got a good little support group going. Huddle together so yall can keep warm...trackdriver

"Kim Jong-Un speaks and his people sit up at attention. I want my people to do the same.” An actual sitting US President said that. Let that sink in.

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Richard Lambert
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quote:
Originally posted by Wingman66
Yeah filling the planets air with poisonous chemicals sounds better huh? Bet you won't lock your garage with your car running, will you?


And yet emissions went down under President Trump's policies.

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benderb4
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quote:
Originally posted by 4play
Strip mining the planet is a great idea!!!

Keep your head in the sand and believe all the pixy dust they are blowing up your A$$



After everyone is committed to driving Lithium battery power cars ,some yahooo environmentalists will start screaming about the damaged environment.

Consider this and CHINA BIDEN>>>:::

A spike in demand can be attributed to an announcement made by the Chinese government in 2015, when it prioritized electric vehicles (EVs) as part of its 13th Five-Year Plan. (Isn't that interesting )
Over the period from 2016-2018, the price of lithium has more than doubled and is expected to keep on rising as global demand continues to increase.

In a climate so dry and arid as the Atacama Desert and the Salar de Uyuni, 500,000 gallons of water are needed to produce just a single tonne of lithium.

The toxic cocktail of chemical used to extract the lithium from the ground is also capable of infiltrating nearby rivers, streams and water supplies. Exactly this catastrophe occurred in the Liqi River in Tibet in 2016, where mining operations contaminated the water and resulted in thousands of dead fish and many poisoned cattle and yak. It’s the third time that it has happened in seven years.

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shadinc
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quote:
Originally posted by Wingman66
Yeah filling the planets air with poisonous chemicals sounds better huh? Bet you won't lock your garage with your car running, will you?
Charging batteries in a closed environment is also hazardous.

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Old Post 02-05-2021 06:24 PM
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shadinc
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Posts: 3369

quote:
Originally posted by Wingman66
I got an average of 130.7 mpg with a ford fusion hybird the other day.
It will balance out when you have to replace the batteries.

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Old Post 02-05-2021 06:27 PM
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Triple K Kennel
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Hybrid

quote:
Originally posted by shadinc
It will balance out when you have to replace the batteries.



I doubt that.....
Our Company has a Fleet of Toyota Prius Cars.....
The Money they save on fuel is way more than the $2000 to replace the Batteries.....which is about every 5-7 years
Tim

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harleydan1956
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Registered: Jan 2011
Location: Canton, Ohio
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Re: Hybrid

quote:
Originally posted by Triple K Kennel
I doubt that.....
Our Company has a Fleet of Toyota Prius Cars.....
The Money they save on fuel is way more than the $2000 to replace the Batteries.....which is about every 5-7 years
Tim



And do you believe, for 1 minute, the loss of the FEDERAL GAS TAX, won't be conveyed to the electric charging stations? Go on vacation and see how long it takes to get cross country.. thousand needing a recharge with the 500 mile range.. oh yeah.. electric planes? Electric trains.. haha.. y'all must believe in unicorns and rainbows...

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Gr Ch. Nite Ch. PR. Lethal Blue Moonlight Serenade... Gr. Ch. Nite Ch PR Hillbillys Smokey River Dutch HTX X Gr. Ch. Nite CH. PR Lethal Blue Izabell Sitara
Ch. PR. Lethal Blue Lil Bit of Respect.... Ch. Nite Ch PR Shivers' Magic Lead X GR. Ch. Nite Ch PR Lethal Blue Betty Jane
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Gone but never forgotten
Gr. Ch. Nite Ch. PR. Lethal Blue Izabell Sitara... Dual Gr. Ch PR Bowens Blue Deuce X Ch. Nite Ch. PR Becky.

Gr Ch Nite Ch. PR. Lethal Blue Betty Jane...... PR. Crites Soggy Bottom Blue Banjo X PR. Mosquito Creek Tree mamma Sis

Gr Ch. Nite Ch. PR. Lethal Blue Rattlin Samantha ... Dual Gr Ch PR Mid Ohio Rattlin Sam X Gr Ch PR. Lethal Blue Jet's Xena

Gr. Ch. Nite Ch Hillbilly's Smokey River Blue Dutch HTX..... Gr. Ch. Gr. Nite Ch Pr. Smokey River Tramp's Blue Lake and Pr. Misty River Blue Doll III.
(Dutch wasn't ours, but he was here and like one of the family)

Pr. Dan's little Porter.... my last beagle...

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4play
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Registered: Mar 2015
Location: Mi.
Posts: 1930

Re: Hybrid

quote:
Originally posted by Triple K Kennel
I doubt that.....
Our Company has a Fleet of Toyota Prius Cars.....
The Money they save on fuel is way more than the $2000 to replace the Batteries.....which is about every 5-7 years
Tim



More like 5k to replace ALL the batteries.Own a Collision shop know a thing or 2 about vehicles.

Is strip mining and injecting Earth/water w/contaminating chemicals worth it?
Fracking bad
Strip mining with dangerous chemicals good....lol

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benderb4
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Re: Hybrid

quote:
Originally posted by Triple K Kennel
I doubt that.....
Our Company has a Fleet of Toyota Prius Cars.....
The Money they save on fuel is way more than the $2000 to replace the Batteries.....which is about every 5-7 years
Tim



Wow first thought was prices must have went down. 2000 each
I had heard 5000-7000 for batteries
So I just googled

average cost for a Ford C-Max hybrid high voltage battery replacement is between $4,364 and $4,438.

Most experts agree a replacement hybrid car battery can range anywhere from $1,000 to more than $6,000, depending on the year and model of car, and without including dealership or independent labor costs
Replacing the earliest Prius battery would have cost $5,500.
The second generation Prius produced a better battery system for about $2,000 less
. The third generation battery pack boasts a price tag of about $2,400.

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Triple K Kennel
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Posts: 4473

Re: Re: Hybrid

quote:
Originally posted by 4play
More like 5k to replace ALL the batteries.Own a Collison shop know a thing or 2 about vehicles.

Is strip mining and injecting Earth/water w/contaminating chemicals worth it?
Fracking bad
Strip mining with dangerous chemicals good....lol




We just had Batteries replaced in 2 Vehicles that were 2014 Models
and one was $2200 because we had brakes put on it too......the other was $2000.
Still not cheap.....
Tim

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Quality, Dependable Coon Lights--Built by a Coonhunter for Coonhunters
==================================
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Wingman66
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It cost me $10.95 per 100 miles in gas vechicle. It cost me $3.20 per 100 in that Fusion. You do the math lol.

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I have to say yall got a good little support group going. Huddle together so yall can keep warm...trackdriver

"Kim Jong-Un speaks and his people sit up at attention. I want my people to do the same.” An actual sitting US President said that. Let that sink in.

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harleydan1956
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And yet, NO-ONE wants to comment on charging stations or loss of gas tax... as if I thought any LIBTARD would comment...

__________________
Lethal Blue kennels.
Where the females count and you will never see a "brood" female!
Dan and Kris Rosier
Canton, ohio
330-904-3392


Home of:
Gr Ch. Nite Ch. PR. Lethal Blue Moonlight Serenade... Gr. Ch. Nite Ch PR Hillbillys Smokey River Dutch HTX X Gr. Ch. Nite CH. PR Lethal Blue Izabell Sitara
Ch. PR. Lethal Blue Lil Bit of Respect.... Ch. Nite Ch PR Shivers' Magic Lead X GR. Ch. Nite Ch PR Lethal Blue Betty Jane
PR. Lethal Blue Tayen Grace..... Nite Ch. Pr Coffins creek running J.R. X Gr Ch Nite Ch PR Lethal Blue Moonlite Serenade.



Gone but never forgotten
Gr. Ch. Nite Ch. PR. Lethal Blue Izabell Sitara... Dual Gr. Ch PR Bowens Blue Deuce X Ch. Nite Ch. PR Becky.

Gr Ch Nite Ch. PR. Lethal Blue Betty Jane...... PR. Crites Soggy Bottom Blue Banjo X PR. Mosquito Creek Tree mamma Sis

Gr Ch. Nite Ch. PR. Lethal Blue Rattlin Samantha ... Dual Gr Ch PR Mid Ohio Rattlin Sam X Gr Ch PR. Lethal Blue Jet's Xena

Gr. Ch. Nite Ch Hillbilly's Smokey River Blue Dutch HTX..... Gr. Ch. Gr. Nite Ch Pr. Smokey River Tramp's Blue Lake and Pr. Misty River Blue Doll III.
(Dutch wasn't ours, but he was here and like one of the family)

Pr. Dan's little Porter.... my last beagle...

Last edited by harleydan1956 on 02-05-2021 at 11:58 PM

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4play
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LOL

Gotta burn more coal to charge those batteries.

Guess the pipeline workers that Biden cut can start building charging stations.Then hook them into the electric power grid....to charge the batteries.
SMH

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shadinc
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Anybody that believes you can use petroleum to make electricity and charge a car with it cheaper than burning petroleum in the car has a lot to learn about energy.

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I know which I'd rather have in my neighborhood!

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Wingman66
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Good for you. When that pipe burst you can pay the billions to clean it up.

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"Kim Jong-Un speaks and his people sit up at attention. I want my people to do the same.” An actual sitting US President said that. Let that sink in.

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shadinc
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quote:
Originally posted by Wingman66
Good for you. When that pipe burst you can pay the billions to clean it up.
Did you see the strip mine? Are you going to pay for the damage done there?

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Old Post 02-06-2021 09:00 PM
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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22462

I would much rather have the pipeline than the nuclear power plant that is 5 miles from my house. What happens if there is an accident there? There is now a quota on how many fish that you can eat from the river. There are signs at every boat launching ramp. If you eat too many, you will die. I will take the petroleum and dirty air over electricity and fish that glow in the dark any day.

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Old Post 02-06-2021 09:18 PM
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Wingman66
Banned

Registered: Sep 2007
Location: Occupied TN CSA
Posts: 1877

What damage? Looks like a everyday run of the mill mining operation. When its depleted the land will be managed. That bottom picture will look exactly like that top one when that pipe burst.

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I have to say yall got a good little support group going. Huddle together so yall can keep warm...trackdriver

"Kim Jong-Un speaks and his people sit up at attention. I want my people to do the same.” An actual sitting US President said that. Let that sink in.

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Old Post 02-06-2021 09:20 PM
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Cotton 1927
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2016
Location: Central,illinois
Posts: 569

quote:
Originally posted by shadinc
Did you see the strip mine? Are you going to pay for the damage done there?
NOW TODAY THERE ALL CONCERNED ABOUT THE ENVIRONMENT! How convenient!

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Old Post 02-06-2021 10:46 PM
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