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DMW
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Registered: Jan 2018
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 28

Breeding questions?

It's pretty much a proven fact that line breeding works. Is there a point that is too much, When is it time to bring in new blood?
What normally happens when breeding two tightly line bred dogs with completely different pedigrees?

Let's assume these crosses are made with good finished dogs with similar traits.

I'm always wanting to learn and ponder information. I have my thoughts and opinions, but they are subject to change. All information is appreciated!! Thanks

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Old Post 01-13-2018 10:54 PM
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pamjohnson
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when you find a fault ya can't live with it's time for some outcrossing.

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Reuben
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The hardest part is finding the right dogs to breed...
If starting to line breed dogs that are mostly outcrossed then study the dogs and then inbreed the two best candidates and then decide which way to go...the grandsire or the granddams side...

If both lines are line red and are basically the same type of dogs but different bloodlines and you cross them and the pups look good then choose the sire or dams line to linebreed off of...

Line breeding works when breeding the right dogs...

Breeding better dogs...half of it is selecting the right dogs to breed...the other half is keeping the right pups to hunt and breed...

There are excuses and there are reasons on the why’s and why not’s...

Test and select pups that are naturals in winding, trailing, drifting and treeing...breeding these types begets more of the same...

If we have to feed lots of tracks to make a dog then you can expect the same from the offspring...

Once we have a dog with about 3 generations of solid dogs behind it it can be the dog you breed many of your females with if he is proving himself...

Purifying a bloodline does not mean there won’t be better pups or worse pups than expected...but it should mean that the percentages of better pups per litter should be going up...this is a combination of theories and experience...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Old Post 01-14-2018 07:37 PM
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Bob Hennessey
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One of the problems I see is the breeders do not see the faults in the dogs they are breeding.

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Fisher13
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Registered: Dec 2012
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I'm not a breeder but I would venture that one would want to outcross when looking for a specific trait that there current line is lacking

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Old Post 01-14-2018 08:42 PM
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JiM
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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 6622

Re: Breeding questions?

quote:
Originally posted by DMW
It's pretty much a proven fact that line breeding works. Is there a point that is too much, When is it time to bring in new blood?
What normally happens when breeding two tightly line bred dogs with completely different pedigrees?

Let's assume these crosses are made with good finished dogs with similar traits.

I'm always wanting to learn and ponder information. I have my thoughts and opinions, but they are subject to change. All information is appreciated!! Thanks



"Proven fact that linebreeding works?" Where is this proof you offer?

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Old Post 01-14-2018 08:54 PM
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H. L. Meyer
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Opinion or fact. jiM that is the trouble most post are posted as fact with little proof to back it up. While opinions in some cases are valid but other times not so much.

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Old Post 01-14-2018 09:08 PM
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yadkintar
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Registered: Jan 2013
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Posts: 6661

Evidently line breeding works in the Black and Tans they all look the same to me some might even be a touch inbred lol.


Tar

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Old Post 01-14-2018 09:14 PM
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H. L. Meyer
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Now that was uncalled for yadkintar no one ever called a walker dog a slick treeing idiots. BUT U may be correct on the inbred...... KEEPING IT PURE....... What U think

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GRUDGES ARE A WASTE OF PERFECT HAPPINESS
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Old Post 01-14-2018 09:35 PM
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yadkintar
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Lol I am bored ain't nothing good on tv and I done had my nap lol.


Tar

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Old Post 01-14-2018 09:39 PM
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H. L. Meyer
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Location: Fayetteville.Ga
Posts: 2170

Tar

It just dawned on me we may have confused inbreeding wit line breeding, It's close aint it

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SHAWNEE HILL'S BLACK AND TANS

" LIFE IS TOO SHORT "
GRUDGES ARE A WASTE OF PERFECT HAPPINESS
LAUGH WHENEVER YOU CAN,
APOLOGIZE WHEN YOU SHOULD
AND LET GO OF WHAT YOU CANNOT CHANGE.

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Old Post 01-14-2018 09:47 PM
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Richard Lambert
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Some statements can not be scientifically "proven". But they are based on valid assumptions so they are generally accepted as "facts". And when stating that linebreeding "works", you first need to state what "works" means. If you are trying to "fix" or make dominant a certain trait or traits in your breeding stock then linebreeding can "work" to do that. That is a generally accepted fact. But that doesn't mean that some won't argue with or against it.

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yadkintar
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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 6661

For any of it to work you have to be a resposible breeder the cream always rises to the top and you have to be ready to eliminate the ones that don't. I breed my own dogs and somtimes it worked and somtimes it was a complete flop but the ones that worked I have enjoyed. In the end that's all that matters.


Tar

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Old Post 01-14-2018 09:56 PM
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elvis
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Ive made enough crosses to know I don't know how to produce super dogs.
Ive also come to realize nobody else does either.
Its a crapshoot and one just has to get lucky to produce a litter of what we are all looking for.

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Old Post 01-14-2018 11:00 PM
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Kler Kry
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Registered: Sep 2009
Location: Monticello, Wi
Posts: 422

quote:
Originally posted by Reuben
The hardest part is finding the right dogs to breed...
If starting to line breed dogs that are mostly outcrossed then study the dogs and then inbreed the two best candidates and then decide which way to go...the grandsire or the granddams side...

If both lines are line red and are basically the same type of dogs but different bloodlines and you cross them and the pups look good then choose the sire or dams line to linebreed off of...

Line breeding works when breeding the right dogs...

Breeding better dogs...half of it is selecting the right dogs to breed...the other half is keeping the right pups to hunt and breed...

There are excuses and there are reasons on the why’s and why not’s...

Test and select pups that are naturals in winding, trailing, drifting and treeing...breeding these types begets more of the same...

If we have to feed lots of tracks to make a dog then you can expect the same from the offspring...

Once we have a dog with about 3 generations of solid dogs behind it it can be the dog you breed many of your females with if he is proving himself...

Purifying a bloodline does not mean there won’t be better pups or worse pups than expected...but it should mean that the percentages of better pups per litter should be going up...this is a combination of theories and experience...



This says it pretty well. The major problem is getting input information on dogs that evaluates the same traits in the same order of IMPORTANCE as you do.
The only thing scarcer than outstanding dogs is finding someone who evaluates them like you do.
I often see references for preference for only dominant traits. Some of the traits I desire are recessive; outstanding tracking ability and intelligence are examples. A dominant trait I don't want is aggressive, alpha behavior. Proper selection of individuals is the key to success whether it is accidental or scientifically decided. Test mating of potential mates is a must. An outstanding individual is either a hybrid or a step closer to purity and perfection. This is my opinion and I'm sticking to it. I have more experience with failure than success. You should learn from your failures as well as your successes.

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Old Post 01-15-2018 04:32 PM
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Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
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quote:
Originally posted by elvis
Its a crapshoot and one just has to get lucky to produce a litter of what we are all looking for.


Isn't it more like a card game? Luck plays a major role but there is a certain amount of skill involved also. You have to play the odds, stay focused and know what cards are where. Professional card players lose but they win more than they lose.

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Old Post 01-15-2018 04:43 PM
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yadkintar
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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 6661

It's satisfying to me to watch each new genration I raise to have traits and actions that their great grand parents had and in the end all they got to do is suit me anyways. Buuuuut when sombody let's say like Richard takes the time and effort to be selective and hits the bullseye with a cross boy do people come out of the woodwork to take credit seldom is credit given where credit deserved.



Tar

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Old Post 01-15-2018 04:49 PM
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nitehunter2004
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My Grandson with a 3rd Generation pup.

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Reuben
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The Look...

They say a picture is worth a thousand words...over the years I used to look at and study the great coon dogs pictured in full cry...still do...just looking for the small details people sometimes don’t even think about...lots of times in some of the well known dogs...is to see what I have seen in some of my best dogs...

It is an aloofness...a sophisticated air about them...a self confident attitude...my interpretation of what I see in these dogs is the confidence to get it done with or without help and these dogs are strictly business when the tailgate drops...these dogs tend to have what we want in a hunting dog...

Some of these dogs will have “The Look” when puppies as well...

Developing an eye for what a good hunting dog is...this will help in breeding better dogs...

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"Kindness is a universal language that dogs can hear and feel.” RC

Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Old Post 01-16-2018 01:16 AM
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elvis
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Isn't it more like a card game? Luck plays a major role but there is a certain amount of skill involved also. You have to play the odds, stay focused and know what cards are where. Professional card players lose but they win more than they lose.

If your lucky you may see 2 or 3 dogs in a yrs time that are top shelf coondogs. Those 2 or 3 are as likely to be from accidental breedings as they are from long time educated breeders.

Last edited by elvis on 01-16-2018 at 01:43 AM

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Old Post 01-16-2018 01:36 AM
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DMW
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Registered: Jan 2018
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Thanks for all the information.

Thank you all for all the information. One of you even emailed me an article that I very much enjoyed and learned from.
Again, thanks to all.

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DMW
"Turn 'em loose!!!"
...."Wilkes' Ol' Cotton".... (Dohoney's Boone bred)
...."Wilkes' Zoom".... (Straight off Dohoney's Tom Horn)
...."Wilkes' Brooke".... (Sackett Jr bred)
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Richard Lambert
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Was Mr Clean from an accidental breeding?
How about Sackett Jr?
How about Rat Attack?

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Old Post 01-16-2018 02:30 AM
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CONRAD FRYAR
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Reuben, I agree with you on your point, I have had the same observations through the years. When I have a litter of pups i watch for 2 things, the traits of the parents i bred and that air that you are talking about. Can usually have my pup picked from the litter at 5 or 6 weeks old. Ain't been without for nearly 20 yrs now.....

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Old Post 01-16-2018 12:20 PM
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Bruce m. Conkey
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.

I have read the books. I know what correct line breeding does for the live stock industry.

I have seen several different line bred females make an important impact on our hounds. Most were accidnetal breedings.

Before I go any further we can't talk about any type of breeding before we describe what you want the results to be. Line breeding works great with tangibles or things you can see. Most anyone can line breed dogs to produce a particular color pattern. Same goes for size, and ear length. Those are things we can see and eliminate from the breeding those that don't fit our pattern. It is all those hidden things or intangibles that most men can't even agree upon is why we generally don't line breed for with success. Those things are generally the things that put coon in the trees.

Again, lets go back to what you want. Find some dogs that match what your looking for. Study their pedigrees. Where they line bred?

Unfortunately getting old and coonhunting has made me loose faith in what people say and do. I have seen this more with the guys trying to line breed than with the guys that are just trying to breed a good hound. The line breeders believe so much in what they are doing they not only fool the public but the start to fool themselves. Do you know any many that puts years into something admit he is not accomplishing what he thought he would. I haven't.
Again what is your goal. I don't think it is that a hard to breed a dog that will just go down by the creek and tree a coon. It is hard to find the dog that you can put against the top dogs being competition hunted day in and day out and compete and win. Thats the pups I have always wanted to raise and they are hard to come by. Two biggest failures in my breeding experiences were from Line Bred Litters. The Sire and the Dams were one from the same sire and the other from the same dam. I won't mention their names but if you won't find many dogs that have reproduced more money winners from coast to coast.
Both lattes of pups in my opinion were 90% culls. On paper I could write a story about what they should have done to surpass any dog alive. In the woods they were culls. I think too many line breeders have way too much stock in their hounds not to try and sell you on something that is not there. Its hard to look at a young dog that you have won thousands of dollars with their parents and say it is a CULL. And to add to the example. The female I line bred was outcrossed on her only other breeding and a young dog out of that litter is right at $10,000 in winnings. I am a breed the best to the best. Let others hunt the rest, type of guy.

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Roy Grant
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I have done this for 55 yrs. What I know for sure, I don't know nothing. I have bred TOP females to TOP stud dogs and got a litter of idiots. And to save a little face it has worked sometimes. It is a trap shoot wing it out there and hope you hit it. But there is the human element.

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