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Bruce m. Conkey
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 3353

Here is one I need Your Opinion on!!

Looking at some results of one of them Pro Hunts last night held in UNION SC. Not saying they are good dogs but saying the owners thinks to to pay high entry fees. There were 16 cast and I think only two cast came in with over 200 points and they weren't much over that.

I guess you can call this a two part opinion.

In a month when the UKC SETWD hunt rolls to town will the scores be doubt the same. LOW with an the average winner at 125 to 150 points. Or are they going to be 500 and 600 points for the cast winners. Maybe higher.

If you say higher, whats your opinion why? Dog power, UKC Guides have better spots to hunt. Calling time out and moving to the next bucket. There has to be a factual reason and not an opinion on this. I sure don't have a crystal ball but I would be willing to bet the scores in a month will be a lot better.

Does anyone think the facts as to why, should concern you. I do because the winner get publicity and that publicity brings attention to breeding. If you understand the foundation of coon hunting and what is going on. You will understand why the house is cracking.

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Old Post 01-13-2018 04:30 PM
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Josh Michaelis
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Registered: Jan 2004
Location: North MO
Posts: 1912

Re: Here is one I need Your Opinion on!!

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
Looking at some results of one of them Pro Hunts last night held in UNION SC. Not saying they are good dogs but saying the owners thinks to to pay high entry fees. There were 16 cast and I think only two cast came in with over 200 points and they weren't much over that.

I guess you can call this a two part opinion.

In a month when the UKC SETWD hunt rolls to town will the scores be doubt the same. LOW with an the average winner at 125 to 150 points. Or are they going to be 500 and 600 points for the cast winners. Maybe higher.

If you say higher, whats your opinion why? Dog power, UKC Guides have better spots to hunt. Calling time out and moving to the next bucket. There has to be a factual reason and not an opinion on this. I sure don't have a crystal ball but I would be willing to bet the scores in a month will be a lot better.

Does anyone think the facts as to why, should concern you. I do because the winner get publicity and that publicity brings attention to breeding. If you understand the foundation of coon hunting and what is going on. You will understand why the house is cracking.



Trees are not scored as strictly, and when you call time out and move, and multiple dogs are on the same tree your scores are going to be higher.

You want even a bigger discrepency look at the Grand Masters scores vs Autumn Oaks.

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sleepy head
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Registered: May 2015
Location: IN
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In UKC your more likely to have casts of dogs that have a hunting style that lends itself to treeing more coon in less area

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jawscardodger
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Registered: Mar 2004
Location: CT
Posts: 854

Re: Re: Here is one I need Your Opinion on!!

quote:
Originally posted by Josh Michaelis
.

You want even a bigger discrepency look at the Grand Masters scores vs Autumn Oaks.



The new GRAND Night format as dropped the scores at AO.Now its walker days with the big scores

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Old Post 01-13-2018 05:21 PM
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Jmyers8
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Registered: Jun 2015
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My dog has been at the lone star hunt is Texas all week each night of hunting they have averaged 2-300 plus cw and my dog got in the final four with 150. Talking to my buddy that is handling her no dog had been pulled off the same tree and my female at one point was a mile. You have dogs doing there own thing your gonna burn up some time.. now in ukc you may have a dog or two by it's self and a few treed together makes it easier to load them up and go to another spot. And I'm gonna guess two completely separate groups of people hunting. You don't see many ukc guys at bigger pkc hunts for whatever reason and when you go to a ukc hunt you don't see many of the other club hunters.

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John B.Dalton
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Registered: Oct 2005
Location: Kenbridge,va
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How about a different set of tree points??
How about a more pack orientated cast??
How about time out between trees if they are split??
How about buckets versus wild coons??
How about fewer minus points on questionable trees??
How spot hunting and moving??

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Cyoung
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Registered: Mar 2016
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.

In another month the temperature could be alot warmer and the coons could be moving alot better

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yadkintar
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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
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Different rules , different style of dog , different strategy in the $$$ Hunts you always got plan B there is no plan B in ukc highest plus points wins.



Tar

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novicane65
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2013
Location: Nichols Ny
Posts: 977

Even if these 2 hunts were back to back weekends and there'd be some serious score differences. From my experience hunting in PKC, the guys that hunt UKC get irate if you vote to minus the tree. Verses PKC guys care but not near as much. So a lot of the trees that get circled in UKC would be minused in PKC. If the tree doesn't have a hole, or a nest its minuses in PKC. And the UKC guys try to argue that a coon could be hiding up there in a crotch, or on the leafy bundle on that limb. It's pretty easy to understand, PKC guys tend to be on a very strict judgement vs UKC.

And to throw a twist on this, if you hunted the same dogs in both registries on the same night would the scores be different?

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joey
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Registered: Jun 2012
Location: McRae Ar
Posts: 3386

quote:
Originally posted by John B.Dalton
How about a different set of tree points??
How about a more pack orientated cast??
How about time out between trees if they are split??
How about buckets versus wild coons??
How about fewer minus points on questionable trees??
How spot hunting and moving??




I'll add one more thing. You tend to get a dominate dog in some UKC cast and it doesnt happen as much in PKC. One dog running the show and getting the front end of everything makes for bigger scores. That plus John list is pretty much it.

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ctreeingsob
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Registered: Nov 2017
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quote:
Originally posted by novicane65
Even if these 2 hunts were back to back weekends and there'd be some serious score differences. From my experience hunting in PKC, the guys that hunt UKC get irate if you vote to minus the tree. Verses PKC guys care but not near as much. So a lot of the trees that get circled in UKC would be minused in PKC. If the tree doesn't have a hole, or a nest its minuses in PKC. And the UKC guys try to argue that a coon could be hiding up there in a crotch, or on the leafy bundle on that limb. It's pretty easy to understand, PKC guys tend to be on a very strict judgement vs UKC.

And to throw a twist on this, if you hunted the same dogs in both registries on the same night would the scores be different?

I think u might have it backwards in the pkc is were ever one wonts to circle everything and no one wonts to take there minuse Ive seen these so called pro judges in these pro hunts actually circle a tiny hole that u can barley stick three fingers in on a tree that was blowed over and dog was treed in the top of the tree pretty much barking straight up in the air

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Roy Grant
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Registered: Dec 2013
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I see a Cast Winner had 550 minus...really. lol at the Texas hunt

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John B.Dalton
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Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:
Originally posted by Roy Grant
I see a Cast Winner had 550 minus...really. lol at the Texas hunt
So are you saying you think they cheated to get that score ??

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rghnd123
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2010
Location: NorthWest Louisiana
Posts: 701

Low scores

In the other KC the dogs are more of a loner type. You don't have the dogs all packed up like in most UKC hunts. Once a dog has a title a good many comp hunters move to the other KC because, no matter how much money they have won they can still be hunted for a reward. There are hunts won with minus but it isn't going to happen all the time. If UKC found a better way to reward people for wins they would possibly see more support. I wish UKC would come up with a monetary system like the other KC's do but who am I to say. I have only been on one comp hunt in two years.

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Clif Owen
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2012
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 281

I believe the scores will be higher. Maybe not al of them but the winners will be. I kind of equate it to a bass tournament. The more guys that are out there; the better the odds that someone will get on them. Also, the weather very well may be better; leading to more movement

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Rip
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4620

You guys are forgetting one very important thing.

In PKC most of the time the only time there is 100 strike is the first drop. After that it is 25 strike and 100 tree.

UKC it is 100 strike and 125 tree.

Just simple math, 4 coons PKC taking first and first on every one is going to be 575

4 coons UKC first and first is 900.

That isn't considering the fact of not calling time out and having more time in UKC to score even more trees with more plus points available and also not considering calling time out between split trees that take more than 15 minutes to walk to.

It is very clear, same dog will have vastly different scores just because of the different rules.

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B&Ttreed2017
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Cast Winner

with 550 minus....How is that a "Winner"

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Richard Lambert
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Every cast has a winner. The dog that does the best job in the cast wins. Is that so hard to understand? Every cast doesn't get turned out on coons. Every cast doesn't have one real coondog in it. But every cast has a winner. That is one thing that keeps people hunting PKC hunts. Even if you get an awful guide and have a bad night someone in your cast is going to win that cast.

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rghnd123
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Registered: May 2010
Location: NorthWest Louisiana
Posts: 701

UKC

In UKC it's not 100 strike except on the first drop. Unless all the dogs are wadded up together. Just the other KC has more loners. Someone is going to take the money home, how it works. You hear people down a dog for winning on minus. Go take the money if you can win with plus every time.

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Old Post 01-14-2018 05:28 AM
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Stonewall24
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Registered: Feb 2017
Location: Statesville
Posts: 47

Look at who is guiding them

The PKC hunt doesn't draw as many hunters in Union so they don't drive as far as the one with UKC. Pkc hunters hunt local most of the time hunting game lands. Which everyone hunts them . The high scores that come into setwd the guides comes back to NC which they mostly hunt private land. Their on buckets and most of the time it's a little warmer then in Feb to coons are moving a little more. If you will look at the cast winners and their scores and guides for the past three years u will see the reason why scores are higher.

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Richard Lambert
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Go to the play by play on Prohound Forum for the final cast at big hunt in Texas last night. They were continuously walking from tree to tree and scored on 7 or 8 trees. The dog that won the cast had 250 +.

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Cry Tough Blues
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Different sets of rules, each of the kennel clubs has their pros and cons- no play on words intended

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Richard Lambert
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So apple's to oranges huh, why are we trying to compare the two?

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Bruce m. Conkey
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Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 3353

,

Richard, I think it is important to understand the differences, Why, you might ask?
We breed to different dogs for different reason. If I breed to a dog it is because I saw something with my own eyes, I wanted from the genetics in a hound. Hoping to get some.
We have way too many people that have never seen a hound or seen any brothers, sisters or kissing cousins to the hound. Breed because of what it won, being advertised in a pretty picture. I don't think that is good for the future of our hounds. It the same with all KC's. This picture with a dog that won a truck or that picture with a dog that won a table full of trophies. That is great for the people involved and they should be congratulated and they should cherish the moment they worked hard to achieve. That on the other hand is not a reason to breed to a hound. It is a reason to investigate the genetics behind the hound as there might be something there. Just not the reason for getting caught up in the moment and breed. An understanding of the rules and conditions that won the truck or won the trophies, helps keep the hype down.

Richard you have been around. If you were just evaluating the winnings of a dog. Do you put more stock in one kennel club over another having a winner that would operate like you want one to.

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Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
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Re: ,

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
Richard, Do you put more stock in one kennel club over another having a winner that would operate like you want one to.


It all depends on which kennel club that the pups will be hunted in. Or which KC's members you will be marketing the pups to.
Very few people can actually hunt with these dogs any more. They have to base their opinions on "hype". The days of hunting with a stud before you breed your female to him are gone.

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