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Treedog 247
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Registered: Aug 2014
Location: Indiana
Posts: 73

Tree Dog Traits

I have a question about the traits on treeing. If a dog and some of its litter mates can mow a track down but donít like to tree alone or with others could them traits come from the stud or female ?

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Jeff Prince
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Yes. 😂
If a dog or its litter mates won't tree I'd run from that cross ! Period !

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Treedog 247
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I was told the traits come from the female not the stud just curious if thatís handed down from the stud or female or both.

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Old Post 01-13-2018 06:36 AM
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Jeff Prince
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Both . But I strongly think ( know) that most come from the female. However I've seen sorry pups out of two dogs with all grand pedigrees, not worth a dime . Go figure ?

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BJohnson
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Registered: Feb 2017
Location: Athens Tn
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Re: Tree Dog Traits

quote:
Originally posted by Treedog 247
I have a question about the traits on treeing. If a dog and some of its litter mates can mow a track down but donít like to tree alone or with others could them traits come from the stud or female ?


No doubt about it THOSE TRAITS COME FROM MALE DOG & donít you ever let anyone tell u different!!!!

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2ol2hunt
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Why would it not be the combination of both?

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nitehunter2004
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Registered: Jun 2006
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Why is it someone didnít do their homework before they bred. Why didnít someone do their homework before they bought a pup, or dog that may not suit them.

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Doug Robinson
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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Warsaw, New York
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Re: Re: Tree Dog Traits

quote:
Originally posted by BJohnson
No doubt about it THOSE TRAITS COME FROM MALE DOG & donít you ever let anyone tell u different!!!!


Oh really??? How can anyone be so blind as to state that a dogs traits come solely from either sire or dam. I just cant believe someone is so naÔve to make a statement like that! I guess some people really need to take a basic genetics class. And even when you think you have a good handle on genetics, a cross pops up where recessive traits from both sire and dam show up you never realized were there! It is not an exact science, especially in dogs!

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Black Ash Bawl
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I'm bored , it 4 degrees out

Each parent contributes and equal amount of genes to a puppy. Some traits are controlled by whoever has the dominant gene. That why some stud dogs produce soo many good pups , they have a lot of the dominant genes. The female could just as likely have the dominant gene and have more influence on the pup. You need a hound that has the dominant genes for the traits you are trying to breed for. That's why it's best to research the hounds a sire or dam produced to see if that is the right breeder for you..

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Treedog 247
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Iíve always said it came from both put was told itís the female so I just thought i would see others opinions on this topic.

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Old Post 01-14-2018 07:57 AM
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JiM
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Registered: Sep 2010
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Posts: 6480

Re: Tree Dog Traits

quote:
Originally posted by Treedog 247
I have a question about the traits on treeing. If a dog and some of its litter mates can mow a track down but donít like to tree alone or with others could them traits come from the stud or female ?


I don't believe anyone knows the answer to this question. If people knew one 10th as much as they think they know about breeding genetics, they'd be producing a World Champion in every litter.
The livestock breeders know as much as anyone about this subject and almost none of that is usefull to coonhunters because livestock breeders aren't looking for exceptional brains.

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Larry Atherton
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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Michigan
Posts: 6387

Fact the male and female both provide 50% of the genetic material. How the genes are expressed are determined by dominant/recessive genes, modifier genes, sex-linked genes, and a whole host of other factors even including potential mutation.

There is an argument that the female controls the mitochondrial genetics. Mitochondria are the energy plants of each individual cell. That amount of genetic material is but a very small fraction of the total genetic material of a dog.

Now, take a few minutes and think about all of the different kinds of dog breeds world wide. Then think about all the different looking kinds of mix breeds of dogs out there. Dogs have 19,000 protein-coding genes and 2.8 billion base pairs of genes within 39 chromosomes. Then you have all the different factors affecting gene expression.

That amount of variation is immense!

Jim that is why no one will ever be able to produce a World Champion in every litter.

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Richard Lambert
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Oh my goodness, are there really "sex linked" genes? And if so, just what does that mean? : p

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Old Post 01-15-2018 03:41 PM
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Richard Lambert
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Male humans are physically stronger than females. Although a lot of females will try to argue this anyone with half a brain can see that it is a fact. Just look at the athletes in any professional sport. Is this just because of testosterone versus estrogen? Or do males have different genes?
Now since this is true in humans, is it not true in animals? Don't males of a species act and have different traits than females? So why shouldn't we expect that to be true with hounds as well?

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RedScorpion
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Male humans are physically stronger than females. Although a lot of females will try to argue this anyone with half a brain can see that it is a fact. Just look at the athletes in any professional sport. Is this just because of testosterone versus estrogen? Or do males have different genes?
Now since this is true in humans, is it not true in animals? Don't males of a species act and have different traits than females? So why shouldn't we expect that to be true with hounds as well?



From Google:

A particularly important category of genetic linkage has to do with the X and Y sex chromosomes. These not only carry the genes that determine male and female traits but also those for some other characteristics as well.

Genes that are carried by either sex chromosome are said to be sex linked.

Men normally have an X and a Y combination of sex chromosomes, while women have two X's. Since only men inherit Y chromosomes, they are the only ones to inherit Y-linked traits. Men and women can get the X-linked ones since both inherit X chromosomes.

X-linked recessive traits that are not related to feminine body characteristics are primarily expressed in the observable characteristics, or phenotype of men. This is due to the fact that men only have one X chromosome. Subsequently, genes on that chromosome not coding for gender are usually expressed in the male phenotype even if they are recessive since there are no corresponding genes on the Y chromosome in most cases.

In women, a recessive allele on one X chromosome is often masked in their phenotype by a dominant normal allele on the other. This explains why women are frequently carriers of X-linked traits but more rarely have them expressed in their own phenotypes.

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Old Post 01-15-2018 05:42 PM
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Richard Lambert
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So males or females could "theoretically" pass on more of certain traits to their offspring. And also the males or females in certain crosses could have more of certain traits. And although the male and female each pass on 50 % of their genes to the pup, the male or female.could be the one to determine a certain trait. "Sex linked genes" is an intriguing prospect to ponder. My daddy never mentioned that in his birds and bees talk so thank you Mr Scorpion that was actually very informative.

Last edited by Richard Lambert on 01-15-2018 at 06:45 PM

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RedScorpion
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Registered: Aug 2011
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
So males or females could "theoretically" pass on more of certain traits to their offspring. And also the males or females in certain crosses could have more of certain traits. And although the male and female each pass on 50 % of their genes to the pup, the male or female.could be the one to determine a certain trait. "Sex linked genes" is an intriguing prospect to ponder. My daddy never mentioned that in his birds and bees talk so thank you Mr Scorpion that was actually very informative.


Yes. The Redbone discussion on breeding awhile back touched on this subject. It is the topic behind the idea of an "X factor," "pedigree bracketing," and has been followed and tried by the thoroughbred breeders for decades due to the fact that the physically large heart in Secretariat was found to be tied to the mare side.

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Old Post 01-15-2018 06:51 PM
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Richard Lambert
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If we only knew which genes controlled which physical traits then we could breed scientifically. We would know what our crosses were going to produce. But we don't. So we must breed "backwards". We have to look at the traits that we think are controlled by genes and try to cross these traits.

Problem one is knowing exactly what traits are controlled by genes and are inherited and which are "trained" or manmade.
And also which traits can be attributed to a dogs personality.

If we could only figure this out, then breeding for traits would be as easy as breeding for color.

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RedScorpion
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Registered: Aug 2011
Location: Northern Tier
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
If we only knew which genes controlled which physical traits then we could breed scientifically. We would know what our crosses were going to produce. But we don't. So we must breed "backwards". We have to look at the traits that we think are controlled by genes and try to cross these traits.

Problem one is knowing exactly what traits are controlled by genes and are inherited and which are "trained" or manmade.
And also which traits can be attributed to a dogs personality.

If we could only figure this out, then breeding for traits would be as easy as breeding for color.



That's why I totally agree with the posts by Jim and Elvis.

In IMHO, the best we can do is match traits...but that takes a lot of leg work and being able to know what both the sire and dam are doing when they perform their jobs. But what do I know.

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shadinc
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Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
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quote:
Originally posted by RedScorpion
From Google:

A particularly important category of genetic linkage has to do with the X and Y sex chromosomes. These not only carry the genes that determine male and female traits but also those for some other characteristics as well.

Genes that are carried by either sex chromosome are said to be sex linked.

Men normally have an X and a Y combination of sex chromosomes, while women have two X's. Since only men inherit Y chromosomes, they are the only ones to inherit Y-linked traits. Men and women can get the X-linked ones since both inherit X chromosomes.

X-linked recessive traits that are not related to feminine body characteristics are primarily expressed in the observable characteristics, or phenotype of men. This is due to the fact that men only have one X chromosome. Subsequently, genes on that chromosome not coding for gender are usually expressed in the male phenotype even if they are recessive since there are no corresponding genes on the Y chromosome in most cases.

In women, a recessive allele on one X chromosome is often masked in their phenotype by a dominant normal allele on the other. This explains why women are frequently carriers of X-linked traits but more rarely have them expressed in their own phenotypes.

WOW! After reading that, I think I'll just stick to the "breeding coon dog to coon dog" method.

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Richard Lambert
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But does "coon dog" mean they have the desireable traits that you are looking for and that compliment the traits of your dog? It sounds like breeding "coon dog to coon dog" really is just a shot in the dark. Coon hunters have been doing that for years and sometimes it works but most times it doesn't. It is about like "breeding winners to winners".

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CONRAD FRYAR
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I am still in the camp of family traits, stay with a family and know them! Then only breed the ones showing the family traits that you like. Even when you have to outcross only keep the ones that show the original family traits, Then take them back to the family line.... It's time consuming and takes some other people working with you, but i just don't see any other way to stay "consistent"...within a line of dogs.

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CONRAD FRYAR
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Hall-of-Famer, Pointer Field Trial Jack Harper has stated that 75% of breeding is luck, and he said that we should try to make the best of the 25% that is not luck. Ignoring that 25% has been very costly to many.

ďI shall become a master in this art only after great deal of practiseĒ Ė Erich Fromm

Never breed from the second generation of a fault and no animal is well bred unless it is good in itself. The first implies that effort was made to get rid of the fault, but the fault persisted, and it is a waste of effort to try it with the second generation. The second, is profound in its significance. There are thousands who deceive themselves by harbouring a belief, even encouraging the belief, that a pedigree can make an animal well bred.


Uniformity within a litter is one of the best indicators of a dogs prepotency for those traits. Beware of the swan in an ugly duckling litter - he is much more likely to produce more ugly ducklings than more swans.

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