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DL NH
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2016
Location:
Posts: 586

Re: Outstanding Track Dogs

quote:
Originally posted by Kler Kry
I've never known an owner of this type of dog that didn't have the problem of finding a dog of equal or superior ability to breed them too. Usually breeding them to a NICE dog of lesser ability, just produces more Nice dogs and not Outstanding Track Dogs. Just my opinion. Ken Risley


If exceptional hounds were to become plentiful wouldn’t they then become just good average hounds?

When the exception becomes plentiful it falls out of the exceptional category and becomes average.

The best any breeder can do in my mind, is to breed the best he/she can find, preferably from a family line while keeping an eye on the intrinsic traits and physical confirmation that provide the opportunity for an extraordinary individual to come to the surface on occasion.

__________________
Dan

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Old Post 03-16-2021 12:31 PM
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yadkinriver
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Yadkin County NC
Posts: 1656

Dan imo you just spoke the cold hard facts. I tried for many years to breed for the exceptional dog and then you have to keep up with all the pups you raise and then be able to reconize it. I always liked to buy back the one whose owner complained he couldn't tell if it was running a deer or coon.

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Old Post 03-16-2021 03:10 PM
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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22460

Would an exceptional dog from 10-15 years ago just be an average dog today?

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Old Post 03-16-2021 03:40 PM
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griff
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2014
Location: missouri
Posts: 65

Years ago

In 1979 I was hunting a grade English male dog. He would open on the cold track drifted out open again and keep doing that till he got it warmed up and going. When we were running coon in those Ohio cornfields around and around sometimes he would shut up and cut over and catch the coon on the ground or make it tree. Surely there are people breeding for that kind of dog today.

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Old Post 03-16-2021 04:05 PM
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Kler Kry
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2009
Location: Monticello, Wi
Posts: 744

Kellers Mike-Best English that Hunted With

In the 70s I had hunted several times with Bud Keller of Collins, Mo. and Keller's Mike. He was an outstanding coon dog and one of the top 5 coon dogs that I'ved hunted with in my life.
Bud was a fur buyer and hide hunted hard in Nebraska each year as they were open all year at that time. He was a Gr Nt Ch and had won something like 31 out of 32 cast in the Springfield. Mo. - KC circuit. He was single registered and produced balanced dogs, but I never seen any that could match his tracking ability. The Mick dog that I had at the time and Mike were about equal. I'd suggest that you find some of that bloodline if you like english. I've heard that the Lightfoot english were good trackdogs, but have no personal experience. My experience with taking others opinion on trackdogs has been disappointing most of the time. Ken Risley

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Old Post 03-16-2021 04:50 PM
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3Rivers
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2020
Location: SE Central Louisiana
Posts: 85

Re: Kellers Mike-Best English that Hunted With

quote:
Originally posted by Kler Kry
In the 70s I had hunted several times with Bud Keller of Collins, Mo. and Keller's Mike. He was an outstanding coon dog and one of the top 5 coon dogs that I'ved hunted with in my life.
Bud was a fur buyer and hide hunted hard in Nebraska each year as they were open all year at that time. He was a Gr Nt Ch and had won something like 31 out of 32 cast in the Springfield. Mo. - KC circuit. He was single registered and produced balanced dogs, but I never seen any that could match his tracking ability. The Mick dog that I had at the time and Mike were about equal. I'd suggest that you find some of that bloodline if you like english. I've heard that the Lightfoot english were good trackdogs, but have no personal experience. My experience with taking others opinion on trackdogs has been disappointing most of the time. Ken Risley



Question Ken?, what would be your choice of Walkers along that same line you described of that English? I would like to know those same traits but in a Walker.
-Christopher

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Old Post 03-16-2021 08:55 PM
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Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1903

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Would an exceptional dog from 10-15 years ago just be an average dog today?


When we talk about averages in general then it is possible that today’s dogs are better...I also believe an exceptional dog back then would be an exceptional dog today...

Cold nose fast track...I have seen average nosed dogs that are fairly fast track dogs but when the game is thin a colder nosed dog that is just as fast on track is a way better all around dog...

If the dog is too hot nosed he will have trouble running a track fast unless it smoking hot...

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Old Post 03-17-2021 03:13 AM
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Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1903

Re: Kellers Mike-Best English that Hunted With

quote:
Originally posted by Kler Kry
In the 70s I had hunted several times with Bud Keller of Collins, Mo. and Keller's Mike. He was an outstanding coon dog and one of the top 5 coon dogs that I'ved hunted with in my life.
Bud was a fur buyer and hide hunted hard in Nebraska each year as they were open all year at that time. He was a Gr Nt Ch and had won something like 31 out of 32 cast in the Springfield. Mo. - KC circuit. He was single registered and produced balanced dogs, but I never seen any that could match his tracking ability. The Mick dog that I had at the time and Mike were about equal. I'd suggest that you find some of that bloodline if you like english. I've heard that the Lightfoot english were good trackdogs, but have no personal experience. My experience with taking others opinion on trackdogs has been disappointing most of the time. Ken Risley



I believe the same on great dogs...
If in all those years of hunting and that dog is in the top five best dogs you hunted behind...then he is a great one...great ones don’t reproduce themselves because they are outside of normal...they can produce above average at least that is how I envision it...

Above average can reproduce themselves in a high percentage because above average can be common enough in a family of dogs...

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Old Post 03-17-2021 03:21 AM
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griff
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2014
Location: missouri
Posts: 65

Kellers mike

Thank you for the information. I have strongly considered a pup from mr. Wilcox in the past and it seems that Keller Mike is in those pedigrees. It seems many thought he was quite the dog.
I have decided to wait on a walker pup due from a cross about mid summer.
If that doesn’t happen then i will go English! Thank you for, fellas, for the input.

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Old Post 03-17-2021 04:56 AM
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wart
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2006
Location:
Posts: 416

Dogs

Keller Mike was half running dog if I'm correct also Boyd's little Joe and the Lightfoot dogs were said to come from the same genetics on 1 side of there pedigree also from fox hounds it looks like the track power could be in a line of running hounds also today

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Old Post 03-17-2021 12:58 PM
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Kler Kry
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2009
Location: Monticello, Wi
Posts: 744

One Way To Identifying An Outstanding Dog

The average dog today is much better than the average dog 20 years ago, but there never has been many at the level that I'm talking about. I've observed that hunting an outstanding track dog with other dogs will make "pack dogs" out of " loaners" or the other dogs will just disappear for the night. The other dogs know that of they can't compete so they don't. If you've never seen this then you have yet to experience excellence no matter how old you are or how much you've hunted.

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Old Post 03-17-2021 03:26 PM
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T Felderman
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2005
Location: Bellevue, IA
Posts: 1869

How do true "loaners" know they are getting out tracked and can't compete when they are running different tracks?

I've seen times where true "loaners" are mistaken to be "pack dogs", by "track dogs" that cover the true loaner barking all over the woods and the owner doesn't realize it.

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Old Post 03-17-2021 05:15 PM
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honalieh
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 2154

quote:
Originally posted by T Felderman
How do true "loaners" know they are getting out tracked and can't compete when they are running different tracks?

I've seen times where true "loaners" are mistaken to be "pack dogs", by "track dogs" that cover the true loaner barking all over the woods and the owner doesn't realize it.



A dog that is consistently treeing first (before anything else gets treed) is not a loner, it's a leader. If a dog consistently split trees (meaning another dog has already treed), that's an entirely different situation (could be a loner rather than leader).

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Old Post 03-28-2021 07:08 AM
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Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1903

quote:
Originally posted by honalieh
A dog that is consistently treeing first (before anything else gets treed) is not a loner, it's a leader. If a dog consistently split trees (meaning another dog has already treed), that's an entirely different situation (could be a loner rather than leader).


Excellent post!

For me there is only one type of dog to breed...and it’s not the loaner...much less train for that quality...

Many talk about what qualities to breed for...but the bottom line is easy...breed a dog that gets treed first in any environment or conditions...

There are reasons why this dog does it consistently...

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Old Post 03-28-2021 02:38 PM
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yadkinriver
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Yadkin County NC
Posts: 1656

Not hard to breed a dog that gets treed first in any environment or conditions. Try treed first accurately in any environment or conditions. There is a big difference.

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Old Post 03-28-2021 06:37 PM
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Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1903

Treed or bayed first with the meat...

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Old Post 03-28-2021 07:09 PM
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CONRAD FRYAR
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Northwest Georgia
Posts: 1621

Re: Re: Outstanding Track Dogs

quote:
Originally posted by DL NH
If exceptional hounds were to become plentiful wouldn’t they then become just good average hounds?

When the exception becomes plentiful it falls out of the exceptional category and becomes average.

The best any breeder can do in my mind, is to breed the best he/she can find, preferably from a family line while keeping an eye on the intrinsic traits and physical confirmation that provide the opportunity for an extraordinary individual to come to the surface on occasion.


This is a good saying 👍🏼
I think we have as many old blooded walkers as there are, and the big difference is they like to be right.
I truly believe in line breeding these dogs, one outside cross can change your whole dynamics without a lot of homework. Lipper , Coma , Yadkin River ....track dogs.
We work hard at maintaining these lines and blending.

__________________
Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

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Old Post 03-28-2021 08:00 PM
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