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Bruce, it's hard to explain (and believe) if you never saw it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dave Richards
Ken, are you suggesting that intelligence in a dog is not natural ability? You made the statement that young hunters should not rely strictly on a dogs natural ability! Yet you made the statement that high degree of natural ability along with intelligence is required to make an outstanding dog! I agree that it takes both, but I contend that intelligence is part of the natural ability. We can not make a dumb dog smarter no more than we can teach a dog to wind tree, or trail a cold track, or do anything for that matter! We can only deter behavior that we don't want and provide the opportunities for the dogs to hone their skills. You gave great advice for anyone wanting a dog and that is to hunt with a man's dogs to see if they possess the traits you desire in a dog. If you don't see those abilities or traits, then they aren't there. I am always eager to learn something new, please share with me [and the board] any tips to train intelligence or put something in a dog that's not just natural ability. My guess as to why outstanding dogs are so rare, is the rarity of a great trainer getting a great prospect. Lol. Dave

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I don't want to teach a dog where a coon is and definitely don't want to teach a dog where a coon isn't.

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quote:

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Originally posted by shadinc
I don't want to teach a dog where a coon is and definitely don't want to teach a dog where a coon isn't.

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Randy Woodard allways has accurate go hunting dogs , he raises them all and just hunts them , he does nothing special to train them , I have finally got me one of his pups as I have been trying to do so for a while but there allways sold when I get ready for one , we will see how it works for me. 1 Litter was out of mouse before I got her there all grand nights now I believe, she will get bred to him as soon as she comes back in .

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Intelligence is a natural ability to learn new things, we do not create intelligence anymore than cold nose, winding ability, ETC. We should breed for intelligence and the desired traits we are looking for, then we might get more outstanding dogs. Sounds easy in theory, doesn't it? Maybe we just need some smarter dog owners and dog breeders. Lol. Dave

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Dave, a lot of guys do not like to think a dog has any form of intelligence, or any animal for that matter. It makes them feel better about treating it like a dog. I know they have some form of intelligence and it doesn't bother me a bit.

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Ignorance, seems like all forms of life has it's share of ignorance and man is no exception. Lol. While it's hard to quantify animal intelligence, it most definitely exists. I have seen some animals that I thought were smarter than some humans, [ easily taught ] I have no doubts that some dogs in the right hands would have been outstanding coondog, yet never achieved that due to their handler mistakes. Some dogs that are super smart make excellent dogs in spite of their handlers. Average smarts and average handler equals average dog. Dave

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THE HIGHER THE INTELLIGENCE OF THE DOG / THE LESS MISTAKES THE HANDLER CAN MAKE. Highly intelligent dogs do not forgive mistakes by their owners and handlers. Loose your temper and you may ruin a smart dog! If you enjoy training with negative reinforcement then you would probably have more success with a dog of average intelligence or one that you have to constantly remind who the alpha pack leader is.
High intelligent dogs do not require repetitive actions to learn. Highly intelligent dogs learn by what you do to their kennel mates and do not require direct physical contact to learn. The best Border Collies are suppose to have the highest IQ, but stupid exists in all mammals.

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I could not agree more , this post mirrors my thoughts exactly. A really intelligent dog in the wrong hands will be ruined. It takes a combination of brains on both dog and handler to really excel. Lack of such, explains the scarcity of outstanding dogs. It's a crap shoot getting those special dogs in the right hands. Pretty much as you said about recognizing the talent, a lot of folks just can't see it. Dave

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Kler kry k agree. I have a 17 month old female right now that you can snap at her and she knows what your saying and once or twice o tweaking something and she doesn’t make the mistake again. But you go after her with a lead or something and she shuts down. But she is probably the most accurate pup I’ve hunted with, that being said she tracked forever before she started wanting to tree. But when she decided to she had like 22 out of 24 trees. She came in heat and took a step or two back when she was layed up but she doesn’t do well with coons being shot out too her. Gets her too excited to tree I suppose. We will see what the future holds but we have high hopes for her

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.

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Lots of good thoughts and opinions from both sides of the fence here. Appreciate everyones input and looking forward to hearing more.

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My hunting Buddy has one like that to here him tell it

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kler Kry
THE HIGHER THE INTELLIGENCE OF THE DOG / THE LESS MISTAKES THE HANDLER CAN MAKE. Highly intelligent dogs do not forgive mistakes by their owners and handlers. Loose your temper and you may ruin a smart dog! If you enjoy training with negative reinforcement then you would probably have more success with a dog of average intelligence or one that you have to constantly remind who the alpha pack leader is.
High intelligent dogs do not require repetitive actions to learn. Highly intelligent dogs learn by what you do to their kennel mates and do not require direct physical contact to learn. The best Border Collies are suppose to have the highest IQ, but stupid exists in all mammals.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kler Kry
THE HIGHER THE INTELLIGENCE OF THE DOG / THE LESS MISTAKES THE HANDLER CAN MAKE. Highly intelligent dogs do not forgive mistakes by their owners and handlers. Loose your temper and you may ruin a smart dog! If you enjoy training with negative reinforcement then you would probably have more success with a dog of average intelligence or one that you have to constantly remind who the alpha pack leader is.
High intelligent dogs do not require repetitive actions to learn. Highly intelligent dogs learn by what you do to their kennel mates and do not require direct physical contact to learn. The best Border Collies are suppose to have the highest IQ, but stupid exists in all mammals.

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Tom Wood

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey




I would like to hear from you what makes the accurate dog just that. Accurate. The one that seems to manufacture coon while the other ones are struggling.

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Bruce
Seen this dog your talking about several times back in the 80’s and 90’s but focus on trying to invent the SUPER DOG has taken its toll on that kind of dog !!!!! Not saying that there ain’t a few still out there. But I would say they are scarce as hens teeth. Just saying

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usually the great dogs have something different about them...it could be how they act or how they carry themselves...most of the time it is both...there is a certain air about them...

I like raising my own litter of pups so I can be looking for those traits because those same traits that I was talking about will be in the same dog when he was an 8-10 week old pup...

there is a certain amount of training but I prefer to call it handling...exposing the pup to the game at the right time and pulling the pup off at the right time...the pup just needs to be exposed to these exercises so they will know what game you want...but the majority of it the pup is born to be a great dog...the genes lined up perfectly and we want to be sure we keep that pup and not let it be sold or given away to someone who wont recognize or even appreciate the potential in this pup...

Yes, there is a certain amount of training...but this pup in the wrong hands could be ruined for lack of appreciation or know how...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

Last edited by Reuben on 08-05-2018 at 02:50 PM

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intelligence...I have had dogs I considered to be great dogs in that I was confident I could hunt them with any dogs and they wouldn't look bad...dogs of this caliber are awesome...

In all my years I have had one dog of a lifetime...the great dogs I had always seemed to do a great job...

the only difference I can say between my once in a lifetime dog is brain power....his brain power was awesome even as a 10 week through 4 month old pup...

with 7 week old pups I condition them to like small chunks of meat...when I say condition I mean I want them to be real hungry so they can love it and want it...through the fence I give them each a couple of pieces each...the third morning I pass by them and let them get a good whiff of the meat...I then scatter the chunks in the yard and stand back and quickly observe...the wind is going to the pups...I am looking for the pup who is wanting out because he smells the chunks...

there could be a pup totally focused standing with that certain attitude with his nose in the wind...I open the gate and a few pups make the mad dash...there will be a few that need coaxing the first time or two...there are those that took to it naturally...that regal pup went from calm to strictly business when turned out...

the pups who find the most chunks will be those that locate the game quickly when they are grown...it is in their genes...it is natural

and the naturals are the ones who get to pass on their genes...

time is too short to keep the wrong pups and then have to try again the next year and repeat the process until we get lucky and get that special pup that becomes that dog that Bruce is talking about...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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quote:

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Originally posted by wjoey
Randy Woodard allways has accurate go hunting dogs , he raises them all and just hunts them , he does nothing special to train them , I have finally got me one of his pups as I have been trying to do so for a while but there allways sold when I get ready for one , we will see how it works for me. 1 Litter was out of mouse before I got her there all grand nights now I believe, she will get bred to him as soon as she comes back in .

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I have not owned a coon hound since 1993 but have continued to go somewhat frequently with my best friend. I live in NH and we are obviously not in an area noted for generating big name coon hounds. I've always loved a coon hound with an above average to cold nose that can unravel a bad track while giving an appropriate amount of mouth to match the condition of the track. To me there is nothing more enjoyable than listening to a hound with a good voice work up an older track into a running track, have a distinctive locate and roll into its tree mouth with a rhythmic cadence. I realize I've likely described a simple pleasure hunting dog. My hunting buddy has been through many hounds and a fair amount of money trying to find such a hound. We also like a dog that checks back in as we spot hunt a lot.

It seems as if most of the coon hunters these days want a dog that never checks in, will be by itself when it trees and won't honor another dog on track or tree. Doesn't matter if the dog runs trash as long as it ends up under a coon. Oh and it needs to be able to withstand fang pressure.

Sorry for the ramble, is there any such thing as a good solid pleasure dog anymore that will take its tracks as they come, have its game in the tree when you get there and actually hunts seemingly recognizing the fact that it's hunting with and for you not just itself. Sorry if this is off topic.

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quote:

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Originally posted by DL NH
I have not owned a coon hound since 1993 but have continued to go somewhat frequently with my best friend. I live in NH and we are obviously not in an area noted for generating big name coon hounds. I've always loved a coon hound with an above average to cold nose that can unravel a bad track while giving an appropriate amount of mouth to match the condition of the track. To me there is nothing more enjoyable than listening to a hound with a good voice work up an older track into a running track, have a distinctive locate and roll into its tree mouth with a rhythmic cadence. I realize I've likely described a simple pleasure hunting dog. My hunting buddy has been through many hounds and a fair amount of money trying to find such a hound. We also like a dog that checks back in as we spot hunt a lot.

It seems as if most of the coon hunters these days want a dog that never checks in, will be by itself when it trees and won't honor another dog on track or tree. Doesn't matter if the dog runs trash as long as it ends up under a coon. Oh and it needs to be able to withstand fang pressure.

Sorry for the ramble, is there any such thing as a good solid pleasure dog anymore that will take its tracks as they come, have its game in the tree when you get there and actually hunts seemingly recognizing the fact that it's hunting with and for you not just itself. Sorry if this is off topic.

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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I get it........there was a day when the competition hunts were made up of hounds that were first and foremost a hunting dog. Competition was to see who had the best hunting dog. Overtime it seems to me the competition hunts have become the do what ever you have to to win at any cost hunts. People run to breed/buy based on the titles alone. Seems to me the competition hunts, especially the money hunts, have changed the face of the sport as a whole............and not necessarily for the best.

Mr. McConkey, this dog you're looking for, is it a pleasure dog, competition dog or is it possible for it to be both??

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