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Bruce m. Conkey
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Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
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Thyroid discussion.

I think this subject is a lot deeper and a lot more concerning to our hounds than we feel or want to admit. Unfortunately a problem has to manifest itself before it gets any attention. Kind of like the baby crying. The baby can have a problem but it usually isn't addressed until the baby cries. I think the thyroid issue in our dogs is starting to cry loud and clear.

Take something as simple as Thyroid issue. Maybe not that simple but you would think a medical problem with one of the bodies organs should have a short list of reasons. Not the case anymore. I know we have talked on the board about genetics and dog food as the main issues. I think it is way more complicated than just those two things when in fact it is just that. Those two things plus a lot more. We think of breeding as In breeding, line breeding and outcross. In a nut shell thats it but we don't get off that easy. Any type of breeding can produce an outcome we don't want. Thirty years ago our environment was stronger and didn't affect the dogs immune system like it does today. Yes genetics, food and the environments effect on the immune systems of our dogs gives us the problems we deal with today. Here is an article I read this morning and out of it I took away key point. Testing for a thyroid issue before breeding.
This article says 50 breeds of dogs are genetically predisposed to develop thyroid disease.

EARLY THYROID DISEASE (THYROIDITIS)
COMPENSATORY AND CLINICAL CANINE HYPOTHYROIDISM


Most of the confusion about the diagnosis and treatment of thyroid disease in purebred or mixed breed dogs today stems from the expectation that affected animals must show clinical signs of inadequate thyroid hormonal production (i.e. hypothyroidism) in order to have the disease. The term hypothyroidism has been loosely applied to describe all stages of this disease process whereas strictly speaking it should be reserved for the end-stages when the animal's thyroid gland is no longer capable of producing sufficient hormone(s) to sustain clinical health. At this point, the dog can express any number of the non-specific multisystem signs of thyroid dysfunction. But let's start at the beginning.

The most common cause of canine thyroid disease is autoimmune thyroiditis (estimated 90% of cases). Thyroiditis is an immune-mediated process that develops in genetically susceptible individuals and is characterized by the presence of antithyroid antibodies in the blood or tissues. Thyroiditis is believed to start in most cases around puberty, and gradually progress through mid-life and old age to become clinically expressed hypothyroidism once thyroid glandular reserve has been depleted. During this process, the animal or person becomes more susceptible to immune-mediated or other diseases affecting various target tissues and organs. The prerequisite genetic basis for susceptibility to this disorder has been in established in humans, dogs and several other species.

The above explanation helps us to appreciate existing confusion and controversy within the veterinary profession regarding whether or not testing or treatment is indicated for dogs that fail to show typical signs of hypothyroidism. In fact, we have only recently begun to recognize the subtle signs of early thyroid dysfunction in dogs as prevalence of the autoimmune form of the condition has increased within and among dog breeds. Today, some 50 breeds are genetically predisposed to develop thyroid disease.

GENETIC SCREENING FOR THYROID DISEASE

These thyroid panels and antibody tests can also be used for genetic screening of apparently healthy animals to evaluate their fitness for breeding. A bitch with antithyroid antibodies in her blood may pass these along to her puppies in her colostral milk. Also, any dog having circulating antithyroid antibodies can eventually develop clinical symptoms of thyroid or other autoimmune diseases. Therefore, thyroid screening can be very important for potential breeding stock.

Thyroid testing for genetic screening purposes is less likely to be meaningful before puberty. Screening is initiated, therefore, once healthy dogs and bitches have reached sexual maturity (between 10-14 months in males and during the first anestrus period for females following their maiden heat). Anestrus is a time when the female sexual cycle is quiescent, thereby removing any influence of sex hormones on baseline thyroid function. This period generally begins 12 weeks from the onset of the previous heat and lasts one month or longer. The interpretation of results from baseline thyroid profiles in intact females is more reliable when they are tested in anestrus. Testing for health screening is performed at 12-16 weeks from the onset of the previous heat. In fact, genetic screening of intact females for other parameters like von Willebrand's disease or wellness health and reproductive checkups should also be scheduled in anestrus females. Once the initial thyroid profile is obtained, dogs and bitches should be rechecked on an annual basis to assess their own health. Annual results permit comparisons that should reveal early evidence of developing thyroid disease or dysfunction. This also allows for early treatment where indicated to abort the development or advancement of clinical signs associated with hypothyroidism.

Healthy young dogs (less than 15-18 months of age) should have thyroid baseline levels for all parameters in the upper 1/2 to 1/3 of the adult normal ranges. In fact, for optimum thyroid function in screening breeding stock, levels should be at least at the midpoint of the laboratory normal ranges, because lower levels may well be indicative of the early stages of thyroiditis among relatives of dog families known to have thyroid disease.

TREATMENT OF THYROID DISEASE

The new information summarized here has changed our approach to treatment and control of thyroid disease. In addition to providing thyroid supplementation for dogs showing the typical signs of thyroid disease, we now know that treatment of dogs showing the early stages of thyroiditis (based on the testing described above) is necessary and important to correct the underlying thyroid imbalance, reduce the risk of developing other related immune-mediated disorders, and to control or prevent the process of thyroiditis from progressing to depletion and exhaustion of the thyroid gland.

1. Type of Treatment

The treatment of choice because of its wide safety margin and efficacy is T4 hormone (L - or levothyroxine). The most commonly used brand names are Soloxine (Daniels) and Synthroid (Flint) and we recommend either of these over generics especially for the smaller breeds. Use of T3 hormone (triiodothyronine) is not recommended for initial use because toxicity can more easily develop with this product; T3 is the intercellular hormone whereas most of T4 must be first converted to T3 before it achieves its metabolic effect. In some cases where the animal's body cannot properly convert T4 to T3, the dog will need both T4 and T3 therapy to correct the problem. For this purpose, the general rule of thumb is to give from 2/3 to a full dose of T4 and a 1/3 dosage of T3 (i.e., 0.1 mg per 10-20 pounds of T4 plus 1 ugm per pound of T3 twice daily). However, no dog should be treated with these thyroid hormonal preparations without having proper veterinary testing, medical examination and follow-up.


2. Frequency of Treatment

Thyroid hormones should always be given twice daily to effect the best response. Until recently, veterinarians have been advised to give treatment to effect either once or twice daily because data on this point was unclear. We now know that the half-life of T4 in the dog is about 10-12 hours (much shorter than humans); for T3, it's only 6-8 hours. Thus, about half of the hormone is metabolized and excreted from the body within 12 hours. Furthermore, twice daily dosing aids in controlling thyroiditis because it shuts off pituitary production of TSH by negative feedback in concert with the half-life of the hormone. In other words, the dog's own thyroid follicular cells become quiescent and are less likely to stimulate production of the antithyroid antibodies responsible for the disease. (Obviously these are simplistic explanations of the complex metabolic, immunologic and biochemical events involved.) Contrary to some popular wisdom, treatment with thyroid hormone does not destroy or suppress the potential of the gland to respond on its own once treatment is stopped for whatever reason. The latest veterinary research shows that it takes the thyroid gland up to 30 days to recover its full potential once therapy is withdrawn. Therefore if an animal has been medicated, where the diagnosis is unclear, treatment should be withdrawn (if it's clinically safe to do so) for 30 days before the animal is retested with the complete type thyroid profile described above.

Follow-up testing after initiating treatment is usually performed after four to eight weeks of therapy. The sample should be taken 4-6 hours after the morning dosage and optimum results will show thyroid values in the upper third of normal ranges at the peak time of absorption. Dosage can then be adjusted accordingly if needed. Dogs on long term therapy with thyroid hormones should be monitored with complete panels (not just T4 as you need to be sure the dog's body is converting the T4 medication properly to T3) on a regular basis (every 6-12 months).

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Sonny Phipps
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This is all Wrong just ask YTR, He knows everything.....

On a serious note, that is alot of good info

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yadkintar
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I ain't gonna comment I am setting here drinking my hazelnut coffee having happy thoughts lol.

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novicane65
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Well after taking my older female to 6 different vets not 1 can tell me why she isn't coming into heat. Her t4 level is low normal at 1.7 and doesn't seem to vary much. I got her 3 years ago and she came in heat a couple months after I got her. And nothing now. Have had male dogs around her every month for almost 2 years. And none of the males acted like she was coming in, so silent heat is out. And all the vets told me was she didn't need any thyroid meds. But those 2 things are connected to each other. And she's on good food ( pro plan), takes a daily vitamin. And the vets can't tell me why she isn't coming in heat.

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Sonny Phipps
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Why cant some women have children? Mother nature works in weird ways. It sounds like you have taken care of her and spent time at the vet getting her checked. I would say that with enough money and tests you could probably find out WHY, but not be able to change it. I had a really good female years back that came in heat 2 times in her whole life. She had 1 puppy when I bred her and it died.

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Bruce m. Conkey
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..

I think the T3 number would be valuable. It is my understanding it comes from T4 and has its own number. Plus I think the T3 has more to do with the dogs physical body than t4.

I think a lot of this is overlooked by the vets and written off as not a concern when in performance dogs such as hounds it is a big concern.
The other side of the coin is vets get a bad rap for over medicating dogs. Just like doctors do with human patients.

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yadkintar
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Back in the day lol. Some well known friends of mine bought a really famous old female she would not come in heat they took her to a vet he flushed her out like a duesh only deeper and she came in heat and had pups if granny don't come in before long I am going to try it.

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Richard Lambert
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Bruce, I am not a vet but my understanding is that T4 Must be converted to T3 by the body before it can be used. Not all but some dogs/human's bodies not only have a problem producing the T4 but also converting the T4 into T3 so that it can be used by the cells. In humans they always test for T4 and T3 and give you what they call a T3/T4 ratio. What I don't understand is why Vets don't want to give meds to a hound if their T4 level is low normal. Almost every study that I have seen says that they should be in the mid to high range.

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Sonny Phipps
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Re: ..

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
I think the T3 number would be valuable. It is my understanding it comes from T4 and has its own number. Plus I think the T3 has more to do with the dogs physical body than t4.

I think a lot of this is overlooked by the vets and written off as not a concern when in performance dogs such as hounds it is a big concern.
The other side of the coin is vets get a bad rap for over medicating dogs. Just like doctors do with human patients.



A full thyroid panel that tests T3,T4 free T3 and free T4 plus a couple other hormones is needed to fully understand your dogs issues. The pituitary gland tells the thyroid gland to produce and those hormones need to be checked. It some cases they are elevated trying to make the the thyroid "work".

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Bruce m. Conkey
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Sonny and Richard your correct. A full profile panel is important. You can send off a sample yourself for $75

Thyroid Panel, Canine: FT4d, T4, T3, TSH, TgA - THYPK9

https://ahdc.vet.cornell.edu/docs/C...oid_Testing.pdf

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Richard Lambert
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A friend of mine's vet wanted to charge him $200 for a panel. I don't want to "understand" I just want the meds. If they work ok and if they don't then I would look at something else. I believe in "treating the symptoms". I don't need a $200 panel to know that my dog has a problem. If iodine supplement doesn't work then it is on to Thyroxine.

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Bruce m. Conkey
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Richard there are several testing places that will allow your vet to draw the sample and then test them for less than $100. Of course when you ship things around your always running a risk of the sample not being handled correctly. Temperature of the sample can change the T4 number. The other side of the coin is your vet might not take it kindly that you want to use your own lab.

I have said in the past, that I would never keep a dog on my place I had to give two pills a day to. After reading the past week on this subject a little more I might have changed my thoughts. Just give them all two pills a day if they need it or not.

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yadkintar
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How is that being a responsible breeder Bruce ? Richard you mean the red dogs got it now too geez !!!

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novicane65
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I don't plan to breed mine. But just like women that don't cycle it's bad news in the long run. Thats what's concerning me

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Richard Lambert
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If low thyroid was secondary to erlichia, what does that have to do with breeding? Should we not breed a female that has had Erlichia or Lymes desease?

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Sonny Phipps
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
If low thyroid was secondary to erlichia, what does that have to do with breeding? Should we not breed a female that has had Erlichia or Lymes desease?


Im not a vet, but from my experience and understanding with others is that after a tick illness a low thyroid is secondary is called euthyroid sick syndrome. if given a chance, often the thyroid level will return if given a chance. If your dog ends up low after a tick illness and is started on meds, the thyroid most likely will not start working again until you wean it from the meds and allow it to start working on its own. This type of a thyroid condition would not be permanent or heredity.

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Kler Kry
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Bloodlines with Thyroid Problems

So what bloodlines have the thyroid problems? Twenty years ago the only ones with it were Clover dogs. I would assume that breeders would view it like any other defect like aggressive behavior, backtracking and would have bred it out of their line, but then the alligators are still being bred too.

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dean jamerson
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Tar hill dot (littermate to tar hill Henry) was a thyroid dog, I have had 3 different wipeout dogs all three were /are thyroid dogs. I know of at least one dog being offered at stud is a thyroid dog, probably more if you asked. I have been giving pills twice a day for two months now, one more thing to contend with to keep a dog healthy. I just don't have the time to give pills twice a day at the same time everyday. The first ? I asked before buying a pup now is any thyroid issues, it is a deal breaker for me.

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joey
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quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Richard you mean the red dogs got it now too geez !!!


Its been diagnosed in every breed of coon hound.

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yadkintar
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I guess I am shocked more than anything I have had my hands on as many different bloodlines and had as many dogs with as many tick and other diseases as anybody and have never ever had a thyroid dog. I still believe it was man made in the start and has now became genetic and if sombody goes ahead and breeds to a thyroid dog when they know it is one just because they cant make their self take a loss their are to many good dogs out there that don't have thyroid to have to put up with giving one sissy pills everyday jmo.

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quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
I guess I am shocked more than anything I have had my hands on as many different bloodlines and had as many dogs with as many tick and other diseases as anybody and have never ever had a thyroid dog. I still believe it was man made in the start and has now became genetic and if sombody goes ahead and breeds to a thyroid dog when they know it is one just because they cant make their self take a loss their are to many good dogs out there that don't have thyroid to have to put up with giving one sissy pills everyday jmo.

How do you know if you never had one checked? Just maybe one of your young dogs back in the day that had all the tools but was not consistent every night was from a thyroid issue! Now you probably wouldn't had gave it a "sissy" pill but that don't take away the possibility that you did own a few or that you bred a few females with thyroid issues!

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joey
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Tar, no one knew we had them until we started checking them. I promise you have owned more than one.

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yadkintar
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Well then maybe not knowing it I had a cure for thyroid because if they wouldn't hunt and were inconsistant I culled them permanently no excuses.

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Rip
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
A friend of mine's vet wanted to charge him $200 for a panel. I don't want to "understand" I just want the meds. If they work ok and if they don't then I would look at something else. I believe in "treating the symptoms". I don't need a $200 panel to know that my dog has a problem. If iodine supplement doesn't work then it is on to Thyroxine.


Richard I would think that would be a mistake. If you give it to a dog that don't need it you can cause serious harm. That's why you don't see people getting thyroid medicine as a pick me up. Synthroid is cheap as dirt people would give their right arm to have it's weight loss properties, but they don't use it for weight loss because it will kill you if you don't need it LOL.

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Sonny Phipps
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quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
I guess I am shocked more than anything I have had my hands on as many different bloodlines and had as many dogs with as many tick and other diseases as anybody and have never ever had a thyroid dog. I still believe it was man made in the start and has now became genetic and if sombody goes ahead and breeds to a thyroid dog when they know it is one just because they cant make their self take a loss their are to many good dogs out there that don't have thyroid to have to put up with giving one sissy pills everyday jmo.


I understand your way of thinking. Its not alot different then issues with people, Lets take me and my need for Blood Pressure meds. Should I be culled because of it (Dont answer that!!!) ? Will my children need the same type of meds (Maybe so), If so should they be culled? I feed livestock at my barn 2 times a day and my dogs are close by and giving him a pill with his food isnt a issue to me but I understand why some dont want to mess with it. Tar, you have a bad knee correct? Maybe its genetic and you should have been culled before you passed it on... I do agree that it would be best if my dog or others didnt need the meds but its a real issue that we have. Just my way of looking at.

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