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Creason
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2009
Location: West Kentucky
Posts: 151

“Natural” vs “Man Made” Coondog

Both terms are used in the coonhound world and I understand the difference. I am curious if you think or your experience has shown the “natural” any better than the “man made” long term, down the road. Is it any better or worse as a finished hound? Thanks

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Old Post 07-02-2019 08:39 PM
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Reuben
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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 782

Always bet on natural...and breeding natural to natural begets more natural...

Who doesn’t like a pup that the first time taken to the woods he rolls out and makes a round and then he opens on a hot squirrel and trees it...looks like he was born knowing how to do it...

Who wants to feed many tracks for several years to find out if the dog will ever turn on and then after several years cull...lots of feeding, hoping and maintaining one just to decide several years later that he is a cull or a dog that will never be that great dog you’ve always wanted...

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Old Post 07-02-2019 08:56 PM
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Dogwhisper
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Registered: Feb 2005
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"man made " dogs lack the brains that "naturals" r gifted with.
Naturals in the long run have out performed man made , at least the ones I have seen.
Naturals u can't help but "luv m"....that in it self brings one pleasure as opposed to that man made counterfeit .

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yadkintar
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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 9339

The ones that win the big $$$ are more the man made type.



Tar

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Old Post 07-03-2019 12:17 AM
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Cory Highfill
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2004
Location: Clarksville, AR
Posts: 933

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
The ones that win the big $$$ are more the man made type.



Tar




Not sure I'd agree with that. It may take the right man to recognize it, tweak it, or train it to its fullest potential, and it may take the right man to lay down the money and buy that dog with the potential to win big $$$. But I bet most of them start out as pretty nice outfits. Otherwise the folks serious about winning alot of money wouldn't be wasting their time on them to begin with.

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Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
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A man made dog has to be smart to be trainable. They also have to be eager to please their master. A lot of those naturals are crazy and won't pay a bit of attention to their handler. A lot of those man made dogs are not counterfeits. An intelligent, eager to please, trainable dog in the right hands can be molded into a dog that is hard to beat.

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yadkintar
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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 9339

quote:
Originally posted by Cory Highfill
Not sure I'd agree with that. It may take the right man to recognize it, tweak it, or train it to its fullest potential, and it may take the right man to lay down the money and buy that dog with the potential to win big $$$. But I bet most of them start out as pretty nice outfits. Otherwise the folks serious about winning alot of money wouldn't be wasting their time on them to begin with.




Let me refrase that they teach them to do things that are not natural traits. Like bumping them past coons with the E collar so they only get the deep ones. Teaching to rattle non stop never shutting up to go get that deep coon. Cmon Cory you know what I am talken bout lol.


Tar

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Old Post 07-03-2019 12:50 AM
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arkansas cooner
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Registered: Sep 2005
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The man made dogs that win some get bred to. Now the pups have to be man made.. why wouldn’t you want to breed for natural ability if you’re wanting “coon dogs”. I know this wasn’t your question, but don’t guess I understand the purpose of having a man made one. It’s a counterfeit of what we need as a sport and causes young hunters to get discouraged.

Natural born will beat man made night after night..
One day the man made dog will get old and won’t do it no more because he don’t want to. The natural will do it till his last breath if he can. He has more heart

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Cory Highfill
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2004
Location: Clarksville, AR
Posts: 933

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Let me refrase that they teach them to do things that are not natural traits. Like bumping them past coons with the E collar so they only get the deep ones. Teaching to rattle non stop never shutting up to go get that deep coon. Cmon Cory you know what I am talken bout lol.


Tar



Now we're on the same page. I don't necessarily like some of the stuff they can make them do, but it is impressive what a smart guy with a button is capable of. And I'll be the first to agree that alot of the rattle headedness and even some of the independence you see these days is the result of a trainer, not a breeder.

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Old Post 07-03-2019 01:55 AM
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yadkintar
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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 9339

It’s been many moons ago but I handled a red dog for a well known breeder. Dogs would get treed and he would run around and around the tree two or three times screaming and leave there screaming like he had one by the tail he would keep doing it till he got the dogs pulled never seen one he couldn’t pull. Then he would come back and get plussed on their coon they got minused on lol. Boy did I have guys mad at me I think they was talken about beating me up but I got him finished and sent back home to Pennsylvania lol.


It made a couple quit at the club house lol.


Tar

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Old Post 07-03-2019 02:13 AM
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pamjohnson
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Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 1666

Even most of the big winners do have natural ability. The man made side is what can make them a bigger winner. The hunts and the rules push handlers into the man made portion.

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shadinc
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Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 2097

I would think most of the "man-made" dogs you're talking about are naturals. Don't you think the people who spent the time train a dog to win hunts would start with a pup that's a natural? You can't man make one from the ground up. You have to have a good prospect to start with. I have one that's a natural, but she will cover a dog trailing or treed. If somebody blows a squaller she's coming. I pleasure hunt so it doesn't bother me.

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Cry Tough Blues
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Registered: Jan 2005
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Any hound wearing a shocker could be considered man made.

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CHEWBACH
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Registered: Jan 2007
Location: monroeville OH
Posts: 2504

all I will say about this post ! nothing but naturals **** in my yard ! those others trainers can have them all. good luck. you see a lot post on hear about how to get a dog to stay treed to how to get one to hunt all the other things go into what a coondog should do. this is what ya get with man made dogs. sure they will evuentually run and tree! just not in my yard.

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honalieh
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 1801

Natural = About talent (at whatever level that may be).

Man Made = About guiding and training that talent. If the talent isn't there, you can't put it there.

Natural talent is a starting point. You still have to train, guide, and sometimes correct them.

The best dogs are typically the highly talented dogs that have been trained and handled well.

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Lipperman22
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Registered: Dec 2016
Location: MN
Posts: 268

Any good dog has to have an abundance of natural talent.. to make them great it takes some man training.. jmo

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Old Post 07-03-2019 06:56 AM
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ole hoss
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Registered: Dec 2013
Location: ky
Posts: 2198

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
A man made dog has to be smart to be trainable. They also have to be eager to please their master. A lot of those naturals are crazy and won't pay a bit of attention to their handler. A lot of those man made dogs are not counterfeits. An intelligent, eager to please, trainable dog in the right hands can be molded into a dog that is hard to beat.

Amen and that’s EXACTLY the kind I want!! We cut a 10 month old pup loose tonight belongs to a buddy of mine and the pup does a real job on it. Buddy ask me if I think he should grab the rifle. In my opinion no because I’ve come to find with this line of dogs they just look to please you!! And they watch your every action. And when it comes time to put the finishing touches on one of these it’s a heck of a lot easier

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Josh Michaelis
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Registered: Jan 2004
Location: North MO
Posts: 2049

quote:
Originally posted by Dogwhisper
"man made " dogs lack the brains that "naturals" r gifted with.


Hows a fella go about making one if it lacks brains?

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Creason
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2009
Location: West Kentucky
Posts: 151

Interesting

Interesting thoughts, I would agree, something has to be in the dog to start with, sometimes it comes out naturally and sometimes we need to figure out how to bring it out. I wonder if our dogs could cull their handlers/owners, how many of us would be culls. I go back (way back) to my football days and I know for a fact it happens. Gifted athletes they may be, but some players never reach their potential under one coach but excel under another. There is just a connection with one and not the other. Just my opinion! I think Honalieh said it well.

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Bruce m. Conkey
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Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 4158

.

What you are talking about with football is the motivation one coach can offer someone that another coach can't. The coach that can't either feels that motivation is not his responsibility or doesn't understand that a motivated team joined together can accomplish a lot of things.

I am sure many on here know something about football and Nascar. Look at the one person that has done very well in both areas. Joe Gibbs. As a football coach he won the Super Bowl. As a Car Owner he has won the NASCAR Championship. Joe Gibbs can't throw a football or drive a stock car. But he knows what it takes to be a winner and he knows how to motivate the people around him to be a winner.
He is a leader and know what it takes to win.

That same desire can go a long ways in a persons coon hunting. But the one thing about coon hunting. If you desire isn't at the top level. You can still enjoy the hunting you are doing "down by the creek". You won't be in football or nascar very long. If your just happy being there.

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yadkintar
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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 9339

I guess it is coaching y’all are right !! Give them performance enhancing drugs. Get them so hopped up and shock them to make them blow deep every time. Barking every time their feet hit the ground tree one coon in two hours whoop anything that backs them. sounds like natural talent to me. That’s why people are staying home they can’t stand all that natural talent lol.



Read the play by plays !!


Tar

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Creason
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Registered: Jun 2009
Location: West Kentucky
Posts: 151

Tar

That is funny! Tar, if you got something to say, just say it. 😁

Last edited by Creason on 07-03-2019 at 05:05 PM

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OLD TIMER
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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1292

I had the honor--

of meeting Lou Holtz when he was coaching the MN Gophers and he said

"You can Coach someone with natural talent, but you can't teach it."

There are 40 drivers in each Nascar Race and they race each other every time there's a race, only one ends the year a Champion.

Wonder how many hounds try for the Championship each year?? Bet the odds aren't 40 to 1??

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2ol2hunt
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Posts: 569

If it's not in em you can't get it out em and that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it! Lol

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ole hoss
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Registered: Dec 2013
Location: ky
Posts: 2198

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
I guess it is coaching y’all are right !! Give them performance enhancing drugs. Get them so hopped up and shock them to make them blow deep every time. Barking every time their feet hit the ground tree one coon in two hours whoop anything that backs them. sounds like natural talent to me. That’s why people are staying home they can’t stand all that natural talent lol.



Read the play by plays !!


Tar


How would one go about making one bark, I’ve shut a few up in my time but never been able to make one bark

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