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UKC Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.3.0 UKC Forums > Departments > UKC Coonhounds > Proposal 12 - Scratched for Fighting
Should dogs be seen in the act of fighting or attempting to fight before scratching?
You do not have permission to vote on this poll.
Yes, the judge should have to see dogs in the act. 68 56.67%
No, a competent judge knows what a fight sounds like without having to see it. 52 43.33%
Total: 120 votes 100%
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Sgraves
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2017
Location:
Posts: 232

Re: Re: Scratching Aggressive Dogs

quote:
Originally posted by Pat Bizich
Funny how some people on here will agree with these statements until it comes time that their own dog is involved in a fight . Then they become that very person that wants to scratch the other dog but not their own.

I drove over 130 mile to go to a nite hunt with a guy I thought was a friend. At a tree we were searching unbeknown to me he tied his dogs lead 2 inches ,yes that's correct no typo , from my dogs lead. With our backs to the dogs the leads entangled and a fight ensued. He threaten to DROP KICK MY DOG for fighting with HIS MOST FAVORTIST DOG(his words) and only wanted to scratch my dog.I argued both must be scratched not just mine. He refused. Guess what .None got scratched.

This is a part of the mentality of hunting judges we have to deal with of scratching the other guy but not me .

Sir, I believe that would be a human problem not a dog problem. Me an you get tied up close together an you jump on me , there will be a problem. You people still donít understand the concept do you. If you want to take the time an teach your dog to be a wuss an lay down an get his butt ate up so be it. Itís not a dog problem , itís a people problem. If you were a newcomer to theses nitehunts an you brought a young coon treeing machine to one , not a mean bone in his body. Got treed off to himself an some chit eater came in jumped on him an he fought back. You mean to say scratch both dogs. Doesnít make a bit of sense to me.

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Old Post 06-17-2019 10:36 PM
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pamjohnson
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 1663

Re: Re: Re: Scratching Aggressive Dogs

quote:
Originally posted by Sgraves
Sir, I believe that would be a human problem not a dog problem. Me an you get tied up close together an you jump on me , there will be a problem. You people still donít understand the concept do you. If you want to take the time an teach your dog to be a wuss an lay down an get his butt ate up so be it. Itís not a dog problem , itís a people problem. If you were a newcomer to theses nitehunts an you brought a young coon treeing machine to one , not a mean bone in his body. Got treed off to himself an some chit eater came in jumped on him an he fought back. You mean to say scratch both dogs. Doesnít make a bit of sense to me.
here is what doesn't make sense. In this story you bring a nice young dog and than instead of being concerned with your young dog instead you don't want scratched so your going to to the tree an watch to see if your nice young hound or the other fellows gator looks like the aggressor. Than if he done his training correct either your nice young hound looks to be the aggressor or you have the privilege of cutting loose with this dog again because ya didn't see a dang thing. Now it is with out a doubt a people problem. I don't understand people is winning more important than anything and everything.
Should the handlers fight as well?
If we really think we have to see them fighting do we really need fighting rules at all?
After all if thay can't win the fight there a wuss dog and who needs that?

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Old Post 06-18-2019 12:20 AM
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Sgraves
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2017
Location:
Posts: 232

Re: Re: Re: Re: Scratching Aggressive Dogs

quote:
Originally posted by pamjohnson
here is what doesn't make sense. In this story you bring a nice young dog and than instead of being concerned with your young dog instead you don't want scratched so your going to to the tree an watch to see if your nice young hound or the other fellows gator looks like the aggressor. Than if he done his training correct either your nice young hound looks to be the aggressor or you have the privilege of cutting loose with this dog again because ya didn't see a dang thing. Now it is with out a doubt a people problem. I don't understand people is winning more important than anything and everything.
Should the handlers fight as well?
If we really think we have to see them fighting do we really need fighting rules at all?
After all if thay can't win the fight there a wuss dog and who needs that?

A dog only has 3 chances to get scratched than itís done. If you want people that are new to this game to never come back start scratching innocent dogs that got caught up in a fight that another dog started. It just doesnít make sense to hear a fight an scratch every dog there. People who know their dog is mean donít care . They plan on what is gonna go down every time they cut the dog loose. One of the first things I was told when I started hunting these hunts was that I will have to deal with mean dogs. People will continue to hunt them. It doesnít make any sense to punish a mans dog that he knows is not mean. You are so hung up on the fight in itself. I understand that, there will always be the fight . We will never stop the fight. Scratching all dogs will not solve the problem.

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Old Post 06-18-2019 01:28 AM
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honalieh
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 1800

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Scratching Aggressive Dogs

quote:
Originally posted by Sgraves
A dog only has 3 chances to get scratched than itís done. If you want people that are new to this game to never come back start scratching innocent dogs that got caught up in a fight that another dog started. It just doesnít make sense to hear a fight an scratch every dog there. People who know their dog is mean donít care . They plan on what is gonna go down every time they cut the dog loose. One of the first things I was told when I started hunting these hunts was that I will have to deal with mean dogs. People will continue to hunt them. It doesnít make any sense to punish a mans dog that he knows is not mean. You are so hung up on the fight in itself. I understand that, there will always be the fight . We will never stop the fight. Scratching all dogs will not solve the problem.


No pussyfooting around this. You are 100% dead wrong on your commentary. DOG FIGHTING IS NOT/SHOULD NOT BE a part of coonhunting, and should not be tolerated AT ALL. NO EXCUSES!!! Since it is illegal to cull the owner/handlers of fighting dogs, and illegal for other handlers to cull the fighting dogs, the best we can do is to scratch them and hopefully eliminate them from hunting against other people and other dogs.

If you have a dog that is frequently getting into fights, tell me what caliber of bullet you need to cull it. I, and many others would be glad to help you out!

Something else I've learned. People hunting rough dogs seldom acknowledge the fact, and tell the truth. They will lie and make excuses. Maybe that's not you, but re-read your post, and you should understand how people could/should think it is you.

NUFF SAID!

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Old Post 06-18-2019 06:18 AM
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Sgraves
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2017
Location:
Posts: 232

Am done with this subject. Am not promoting a dog fight. Will not feed a mean dog. An have my own bullets. From the looks of the votes more are in favor of wanting to find out the real aggressor. Which is the right way. I say again so people want try to put words in my mouth. I will not tolerate a mean dog. I have no control over what another man breeds. If your to lazy to try an find out which dog in a hunt is causing the problem so be it. It still an will not make sense to me to scratch everything at the tree.

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Old Post 06-18-2019 10:20 AM
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pamjohnson
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 1663

There is no doubt in my mind if some one new comes to a hunt and gets scratched for fighting he doesn't quit coming to the hunts because he got scratched. He quit coming because of the mean dogs.
Having to see the fight is like asking for arguments and very unhappy handlers that will be terrible upset with results that still won't suit them.
I don't think many people have thought about the side affects this will have.

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Old Post 06-18-2019 02:05 PM
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shadinc
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 2093

quote:
Originally posted by pamjohnson
There is no doubt in my mind if some one new comes to a hunt and gets scratched for fighting he doesn't quit coming to the hunts because he got scratched. He quit coming because of the mean dogs.
Having to see the fight is like asking for arguments and very unhappy handlers that will be terrible upset with results that still won't suit them.
I don't think many people have thought about the side affects this will have.

Pam, I disagree. I think some have thought of the effects this will have, It will keep their alligators in the hunts.

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Team Mafia 2
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2018
Location:
Posts: 97

Mine sounds like heís killing something every time he gets treed. Doesnít matter if heís by himself or with dogs Iíve had cast run into trees trying to catch him fighting and he will always be standing in on place looking up the tree. Last year at the Zones they were trying to scratch me from 600 yards away for fighting and he was the only thing treed. All changing this rule will do is cut out on the dishonesty in cast. No different than changing the minus/scratch rule on off game to being seen doing it. As it stands right now you could be scratched in a NiteCh cast for running a deer when you have an exceptional track dog running a coon. If you say these rules arenít gray areas and donít have room for some serious cheating to go on you definitely havenít competed at a high level very consistently. A slick handler will bend these rules to the breaking point to there advantage. If you truly believe these rules arenít a problem get a couple of buddies together and come down and we will have a ďMOCK HUNTĒ and I will put on a clinic for you. I wouldnít ever do it in a cast but I promise Iím good enough to do a demonstration.

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pamjohnson
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 1663

Dalton changing this rule will do nothing for a gray area, slick handler, or dishonesty in general. The only way to not have rule breakers is not have rules.
2 fellows just made every point that needs made on this subject.

Dalton i realize that you and many other very serious competition hunters are very scared of what another handler may be able to pull off on a cast but changing this rule is not the answer to solve this problem . There really is no perfect set of rules to protect every innocent victim dog / handler.

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Old Post 06-20-2019 02:17 PM
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groworg1
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2008
Location: Gillett, Pa
Posts: 1671

changing the rule will just make the crooks smile by light breaking there dogs if you hear a fight and arrive to all being angels but 2 dogs are bleeding just who do you think was fighting ?

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Kler Kry
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2009
Location: Monticello, Wi
Posts: 578

Aggressive Dogs

The innocent dog has a choice when attacked of either giving ground, fighting back, or leaving the tree. A lot of young dogs don't realize that they can backup and stay. They view it as fight or flight situation. My dogs first encounter with an aggressive dog is probably at a competition hunt as I won't knowing hunt with one.
When you hear a fight and discover bloody dogs it could be two aggressive dogs, but it could be that one dog refused to leave the tree and the innocent dog fought in self defense.

There isn't a perfect solution, but it is time to quit penalizing the innocent and identify the crooked judge and aggressive dog. And I don't just mean taking it to the Master Of Hounds. I encourage you to file a written report with UKC so that the parties in question have a record on file for when they do it again.

IF YOU NOT PART OF THE SOLUTION THEN ARE PROBABLY THE PROBLEM. Ken Risley

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Old Post 06-20-2019 07:11 PM
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Sgraves
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2017
Location:
Posts: 232

Re: Aggressive Dogs

quote:
Originally posted by Kler Kry
The innocent dog has a choice when attacked of either giving ground, fighting back, or leaving the tree. A lot of young dogs don't realize that they can backup and stay. They view it as fight or flight situation. My dogs first encounter with an aggressive dog is probably at a competition hunt as I won't knowing hunt with one.
When you hear a fight and discover bloody dogs it could be two aggressive dogs, but it could be that one dog refused to leave the tree and the innocent dog fought in self defense.

There isn't a perfect solution, but it is time to quit penalizing the innocent and identify the crooked judge and aggressive dog. And I don't just mean taking it to the Master Of Hounds. I encourage you to file a written report with UKC so that the parties in question have a record on file for when they do it again. 👆👍

IF YOU NOT PART OF THE SOLUTION THEN ARE PROBABLY THE PROBLEM. Ken Risley

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pamjohnson
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 1663

Ok say the rules change.
You fellows each be the judge with the hunt that was given on here with pat and Dan. MOCH HUNT if you will. Judge it.

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groworg1
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2008
Location: Gillett, Pa
Posts: 1671

Re: Aggressive Dogs

quote:
Originally posted by Kler Kry
The innocent dog has a choice when attacked of either giving ground, fighting back, or leaving the tree. A lot of young dogs don't realize that they can backup and stay. They view it as fight or flight situation. My dogs first encounter with an aggressive dog is probably at a competition hunt as I won't knowing hunt with one.
When you hear a fight and discover bloody dogs it could be two aggressive dogs, but it could be that one dog refused to leave the tree and the innocent dog fought in self defense.

There isn't a perfect solution, but it is time to quit penalizing the innocent and identify the crooked judge and aggressive dog. And I don't just mean taking it to the Master Of Hounds. I encourage you to file a written report with UKC so that the parties in question have a record on file for when they do it again.

IF YOU NOT PART OF THE SOLUTION THEN ARE PROBABLY THE PROBLEM. Ken Risley

when a dog is wrote up 3 times there gone don't play all innocent and blame others when the fact is your dog is mean just man up
take your scratch and hope it doesn't happen again as any dog can be pushed into a fight and get scratched no big deal had a female in the 70's if a male sniffed her butt when she was treeing watch out she would turn around and draw blood which dog do you scratch ?

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Old Post 06-21-2019 02:17 AM
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Team Mafia 2
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2018
Location:
Posts: 97

You want to see more than a dog fight all you have to do is scratch the wrong guys dog for fighting without him seeing it. Being able to do that is honestly the most ignorant thing Iíve ever heard. Iíve been in as many or more cast than anyone commenting on this and Iíve only saw 3 sure enough rough dogs that UKC PKC and CHKC Iíve heard a little blowing going on at trees but nothing that would warrant a scratch. You guys that think that ROUGH dogs are a big problem with comp hunts are living in a fantasy land and probably donít have a very good pressure tree dog. Iíd be willing to bet that more dogs get scratched from a distance for being a radical tree dog that sounds rough than dogs that actually truly get scratched for fighting. It honestly blows my mind that people are actually in favor of keeping this rule the way it is.

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Old Post 06-21-2019 03:45 AM
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Team Mafia 2
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2018
Location:
Posts: 97

This is the most liberal sounding rule Iíve ever heard of in my life. I just imagine it going something like this. ďIím going to scratch your dog Because heís a mean bully and it sounds to me like heís picking on my poor dog in thereĒ when in all honesty it probably went more like this. ďYour dog has been shoving coons up our dogs butts all night so we are going to use this ridiculous out dated rule to get rid of youĒ
If you are out there to eliminate the competition without being 100% sure without a shadow of a doubt whatís going on then you are the problem with this sport. The ONLY WAY to be 100% sure what is happening is to see it. If you disagree your not only lying to All of us your lying to yourself. Say you have 2 dogs treed you hear a dog fight you have to scratch them both when there could be one rough sucker and one dog getting his butt whipped.
It honestly amazes me reading these arguments against this rule proposal because you have guys like Rock on here who is a known Lier and Cheater who was involved in one of the Worst panels and biggest scandals this sport has ever seen against the change. The fact that he doesnít want to see this rule changed is enough for me to know that it needs it. To me scratching someone for something that you canít see is no different than plussing a coon that isnít there or circling a sure enough slick tree if you will do one your crooked enough to do the other. Leave it to the show dog people and the sure enough crooks to be against a rule that just about EVERY hard core comp hunter thinks needs some adjusting. This just blows my freaking mind.

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Old Post 06-21-2019 04:01 AM
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yadkintar
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 9329

Dalton I think these ole boys use the ole mean dogs at every hunt just to have an excuse to stay home. I been in the game since 1979 and seen about 10 sure enough mean dogs and you wasent going to catch them at it. Every time somebodyís dog leaves a tree ole so and so was mean. In reality they left because their owner has been correcting them for slicks or off game !! I am more worried about ole deep and alone and whatís to eat at the clubhouse than I am a mean dog lol.


Tar

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yadkintar
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 9329

How about being a good enough trainer to make one back up and get out of the way. I donít care if I go to two trees no matter who starts it and mine rolling with anouther dog he goes to doggie heaven simple as that.


To many to choose from to put up with that.



Tar

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Bill(Chew)
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Washington, NC
Posts: 3096

I've been reading this thread from the beginning and I'm sick of it! If your dog is not ill and ends up in a fight because another dog jumped it, shut up and take the scratch. GET THE ILL DOG WRITTEN UP!!! To many ill dogs don't get written up because some one is trying to "protect the innocent dog". Write then up and get them out of the game. If there are two dogs on the tree, no other dogs are near the tree, and a fight breaks out, SCRATCH THEM BOTH! Three or more dogs at the tree, fight must be seen. Dog backed up to the tree keeping the other dogs at bay, write it up!

If your dog is not ill then odds are they will never get written up again. Quit making excuses. I hate to write up the dog that got jumped but if it will get the aggressor IT'S WORTH IT!! And yes, I judge my own dogs by these rules.

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pamjohnson
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 1663

So if the rule was to change your saying on the tree fights only?

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Pat Bizich
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2004
Location: northeast
Posts: 1188

quote:
Originally posted by Team Mafia 2
It was handled correctly you canít scratch a dog at the truck because it didnít cause an interference. There has to be a show of Aggression AND an interference.


ARE YOU KIDDING??? Really??
This is exactly why there are so many arguments on nite hunts. People mis-interpret the rules to suit them self .Erroneously post and others believe they are correct and attempt to apply them on a hunt.

Said it before and bears repeating You guys need to get hold of an Advisor and read it cover to cover. Some rules have changed but for most part they are still in force.

Now to your statement..... You are 100% "WRONG"...Ö
Dogs can be scratched any time even if prior to or after official hunt time.
Unless it has been changed and I am unaware ... At any time under judges authority that begins when that card is handed to them and up til handed to MOH.
You can still be at the club and gathering the cast. If two dogs get into a fight they can be scratched before they even leave.
Without any further comment even in the dog box which also happened on the hunt in question.

Under the current proposal ,if passed ...you got two dogs in a box.You hear a fight break out. Screech to a halt. Go running to back of truck. Only to see two wide eyed innocent looking hounds staring back. Duhhh but gee Gomer, we can't scratch them because we didn't actually see them fighting.

Now just for you Dalton I looked this up. Get a hold of a new Advisor (the dark one) and look/read page 58.

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Redneck Mafia
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 4135

Pat yes you are correct but I have asked this same question to a long time field director and got a different answer. This is one reason this rule needs clarification. As of right now there is nothing stopping a non-hunting judge (we've had some doozies) from scratching all dogs 1-4 dogs in a cast from a far with no way of being 100% sure of what's going on. There could be blowing that is not a dog fight which is not scratchable unless interference has happened. They could be fighting a coon. Unless you see it you don't know a thing only suspect.
The next on the list is #13 scratch for fighting while off leash until the completion of hunt. So if some Male in the dog box greets a female by smelling her hind end and she takes it unkindly if #13 were to pass she would be scratched if off the leash not in the box or tangled up in a dog leash if someone ties their dog together on a ball hitch.

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Old Post 06-22-2019 04:37 AM
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HERSHSHUNTIN
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2009
Location: gillett PA
Posts: 530

fighting

doesn't UKC's policy on fighting include bench shows, water races and field trails as well as hunts? and doesn't it say scratched for fighting or attempting to fight?--if its a UKC policy wouldn't they have the say in what way this is handled?

the problem up my way is that and some judges just don't want to see it--even if its right in front of them--they don't want to write up a night hunt dog--I've heard them say they didn't see anything.--now in a field trail or swim race there are many eyes watching so they normally get wrote up as they should.

page 83 in the rule book I believe

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Old Post 06-22-2019 08:59 AM
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Mark V.
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2004
Location: Sullivan IL.
Posts: 2938

If for dogs are treed you have to see it if 2dogs are treed send them home so they don't mess up some other dog BETTER YET if you are scratch for fighting you can not make us go back to the club and ruin our hunt just so you can cry in front of every one!!!

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Old Post 06-22-2019 01:18 PM
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pamjohnson
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 1663

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
Pat yes you are correct but I have asked this same question to a long time field director and got a different answer. This is one reason this rule needs clarification. As of right now there is nothing stopping a non-hunting judge (we've had some doozies) from scratching all dogs 1-4 dogs in a cast from a far with no way of being 100% sure of what's going on. There could be blowing that is not a dog fight which is not scratchable unless interference has happened. They could be fighting a coon. Unless you see it you don't know a thing only suspect.
The next on the list is #13 scratch for fighting while off leash until the completion of hunt. So if some Male in the dog box greets a female by smelling her hind end and she takes it unkindly if #13 were to pass she would be scratched if off the leash not in the box or tangled up in a dog leash if someone ties their dog together on a ball hitch.

why change a rule for the worse to fix the wrong problem? You keep saying it yourself, the judge ( real doozie)
Even the fellows on here don't have the balls or knowledge to judge the MOCH HUNT. Yes boys scratch them both. No use standing there trying to figure out the aggressor. That's just clueless and stupid.

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Old Post 06-22-2019 01:46 PM
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