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Coby Wright
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2017
Location: Manchester, TN
Posts: 84

How to score this "split tree"?

This is a hypothetical situation. I had something similar happen recently and just wondering how we would score it, had it went differently.

3 dog cast. Dogs A, B, and C are struck in that order.

Dogs B and C get treed together in that order. Dog A is off to the left.

With 30 seconds left on tree Dog A comes into the tree, but is not call treed as handler says he "doesn't sound right".

Upon arrival at tree, Dogs B and C are together and dog A is split 10 or so yards away.

Both trees are slick. Obviously Dogs B and C receive minus strike and tree points.

My question is, how is dog A scored? Deleted strike? Should he be handled at the same time as other dogs or do you back away and start the stationary time until handler declares him treed?

Thanks in advance.

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Old Post 03-20-2019 05:03 PM
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TylerOSU
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Registered: Jan 2017
Location: Miami, Ok
Posts: 298

If the trees didn't touch as I'm assuming they probably didn't that dog SHOULD NOT be handled unless he is treed in. If he is declared treed then he can handle him. Otherwise it's no different than him being split 500 yards through the country and not treed. Obviously in this case the handler doesn't want to tree his dog on a slick and wont have to until the stationary rule is almost out but stationary cant be used until the tree is scored and dogs are recut (dogs should be recut right there according to the rules, "Dogs MUST be cut if loose dogs are opening) which is my biggest pet peeve with the rules.

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Old Post 03-20-2019 05:08 PM
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Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 17436

Start the stationary on A if you can see him while you shine B & C's tree. If his handler hasn't treed him when B & C's tree is scored you lead them off and recast them. But if I was B or C's handler I would shine my tree for 8 minutes.

Last edited by Richard Lambert on 03-20-2019 at 05:16 PM

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Rush Run Rebel
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Registered: Oct 2017
Location:
Posts: 85

explain to this dummy

explain stationary time to me in this instance, I am new to the competition world......thanks

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Old Post 03-20-2019 05:22 PM
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JiM
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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7078

"Upon arrival at tree, B and C are together and dog A is split 10 or so yards away"

Ok, I take that to mean dog A is treed but has not been declared treed when the judge arrives. If that is the case, rule 4(j) prevails. Dog A must be handled at his tree and would be minused his strike points (100) and minused next available (125 since he is split). 250-.

Now if dog A is judged not to be treeing, then the judge has to make a decision as to whether dog A is "at the tree", in which case he must handled or is he not at the tree?

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Old Post 03-20-2019 05:34 PM
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Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
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Actually "stationary rule" is "obviously treed" rule in UKC. If judge thinks that a dog is "obviously treed" he can start a 5 minute countdown on him. Handler has to tree his dog before the 5 minutes runs down or he is scratched. If you are walking to another dog that has been declared treed or shining a tree and can't judge the dog with stationary applied, then you have to stop it. But if you are 10 yrds from the dog and looking at him, then you can still run the stationary.

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Old Post 03-20-2019 06:02 PM
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TylerOSU
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2017
Location: Miami, Ok
Posts: 298

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Actually "stationary rule" is "obviously treed" rule in UKC. If judge thinks that a dog is "obviously treed" he can start a 5 minute countdown on him. Handler has to tree his dog before the 5 minutes runs down or he is scratched. If you are walking to another dog that has been declared treed or shining a tree and can't judge the dog with stationary applied, then you have to stop it. But if you are 10 yrds from the dog and looking at him, then you can still run the stationary.


Rule 6(O). If the cast is in the process of shining a separate tree time shall be canceled and not applied to another dog.

Sorry to tell ya Richard but I wouldn't want to shine it all night if I were those guys!

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Old Post 03-20-2019 06:13 PM
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CHEWBACH
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Registered: Jan 2007
Location: monroeville OH
Posts: 2506

quote:
Originally posted by TylerOSU
Rule 6(O). If the cast is in the process of shining a separate tree time shall be canceled and not applied to another dog.

Sorry to tell ya Richard but I wouldn't want to shine it all night if I were those guys!

glad to see someone read the rule instead of applying there own rule..

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Old Post 03-20-2019 07:48 PM
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Pat Bizich
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Registered: May 2004
Location: northeast
Posts: 1188

Maybe I am missing something ? Original post says dog A was never declared treed.
First thing as a judge walking into a situation that dogs are this close and BEFORE any shining begins I ask if the cast wants to score these trees as one or two depending on how close and if touching once we start to shine .
This could get complicated depending on how smart Handler of dog A is and how it all goes down from here.
In this case lets say Handler dog A says he wants a separate tree but still does not want to tree his dog and cast agrees. This would be a smart move if Dog C and B tree is slick or has a coon.
Now dog A handler either can tree his dog split or not at this point . If he trees he can go handle his dog. If no he has his dog treeing while the cast is searching C and B tree. Indeed they do not touch . Dogs B and C tree is declared slick .
Now if Handler A does not tree and his dog comes over to B and C he will get circle strike and nothing on tree be cause officially he came into the tree after the cast arrived. Coon seen minus strike nothing on tree.
Handler A waits and his dog continues split treeing. Cast backs away from dog C and B tree .
Now two things could happen.
Handler of Dog A could quickly tree his dog .
Or he says nothing stationary is began and Dog A will still get his lumps if slick but dogs B and C will have to be recast.

Call it smart or slick handling.

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Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 17436

quote:
Originally posted by TylerOSU
Rule 6(O). If the cast is in the process of shining a separate tree time shall be canceled and not applied to another dog. !


Time is cancelled because you can't score the dog, but in this case you can because you are standing there beside him. And since this is a hypothetical situation, you can do anything you want to hypothetically.

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TylerOSU
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2017
Location: Miami, Ok
Posts: 298

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Time is cancelled because you can't score the dog, but in this case you can because you are standing there beside him. And since this is a hypothetical situation, you can do anything you want to hypothetically.



Does it state that in the rules? No in black and white it states that if you are scoring a tree the stationary CANNOT be applied to another dog. It doesn't say anything about 10 ft away or 10 miles away. That's why people hate hunts, black and white rules turn into grey depending on who is holding the card.

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It's all about preventative judging and situational handling that keeps you out of trouble.

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Old Post 03-20-2019 08:59 PM
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Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 17436

Oh my goodness....

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Old Post 03-20-2019 09:33 PM
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Bob Hennessey
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Registered: Feb 2010
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Posts: 3095

How did you know dog A's tree was also slick? Dog split not called tree can't shine tree.

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Old Post 03-21-2019 12:27 AM
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Rip
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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4756

quote:
Originally posted by Pat Bizich
Maybe I am missing something ? Original post says dog A was never declared treed.
First thing as a judge walking into a situation that dogs are this close and BEFORE any shining begins I ask if the cast wants to score these trees as one or two depending on how close and if touching once we start to shine .
This could get complicated depending on how smart Handler of dog A is and how it all goes down from here.
In this case lets say Handler dog A says he wants a separate tree but still does not want to tree his dog and cast agrees. This would be a smart move if Dog C and B tree is slick or has a coon.
Now dog A handler either can tree his dog split or not at this point . If he trees he can go handle his dog. If no he has his dog treeing while the cast is searching C and B tree. Indeed they do not touch . Dogs B and C tree is declared slick .
Now if Handler A does not tree and his dog comes over to B and C he will get circle strike and nothing on tree be cause officially he came into the tree after the cast arrived. Coon seen minus strike nothing on tree.
Handler A waits and his dog continues split treeing. Cast backs away from dog C and B tree .
Now two things could happen.
Handler of Dog A could quickly tree his dog .
Or he says nothing stationary is began and Dog A will still get his lumps if slick but dogs B and C will have to be recast.

Call it smart or slick handling.



It does appear this man has hunted a hunt or two, and it also appears he knows the rules for this situation very well. It can get complicated but unless I am missing something he has it nailed.

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mike fleming
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If they know the other tree is slick he can try to get the other ones scratched for shining his tree but he is not treed in so who knows its a good chance somebody is coming back with a question if they put the stationary on him and they already shined his tree.

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Richard Lambert
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You can look up in any tree in the woods as long as a dog is not declared treed on it.

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Team Mafia 2
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Registered: Feb 2018
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Posts: 97

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
"Upon arrival at tree, B and C are together and dog A is split 10 or so yards away"

Ok, I take that to mean dog A is treed but has not been declared treed when the judge arrives. If that is the case, rule 4(j) prevails. Dog A must be handled at his tree and would be minused his strike points (100) and minused next available (125 since he is split). 250-.

Now if dog A is judged not to be treeing, then the judge has to make a decision as to whether dog A is "at the tree", in which case he must handled or is he not at the tree?


Jim you are usually spot on with your answers but this one is leaving me scratching my head. You can’t Minus a dog both ways for being split when you arrive to score a separate tree. The correct way to score this would be to score Dogs B and C tree turn them loose then run the a stationary on dog A “If he stays after the other 2 have been handled, scored and recast” you absolutely can’t minus a dog for being split until he is treed in. I know you quoted the rule but this is some serious misuse

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Old Post 03-27-2019 04:34 AM
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Coby Wright
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Registered: May 2017
Location: Manchester, TN
Posts: 84

quote:
Originally posted by Bob Hennessey
How did you know dog A's tree was also slick? Dog split not called tree can't shine tree.


In this case Dog A was my dog and I did tree him within the 5 minutes. The trees didn't touch and both were indeed slick. He was moved up to first tree and received -225 which I thought was the correct call and has been confirmed here.

I don't know how I would have known it was slick had I not called him treed prior to arriving.

This pup doesn't like to cover, especially on a slick, so I assume I'll be in this position again and just wondered what would have happened had I made a different decision.

Thanks everyone for the replies.

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