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Bruce m. Conkey
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 2787

.

Note on Line breeding. In the UK there a Kennel Club known as just that. "The Kennel Club" They register over 200 breeds of hounds. They have put a limit on the number of litters a female can have to 4. Just to prevent people from reading how line breeding is the answer to superior hounds and overdoing it. Yes, most breeds of dogs were developed from line breeding. Line breeding is a useful tool. Like any tool. In the wrong hands it can be dangerous. Line breeding without proper selection for medical issues and behavior faults is something that should concern everyone.
I have seen quality dogs that are quality representatives of their genetics. No reason to think the cross should fail. Until you make in and shake your head wondering what happened. I will tell you what happened. The breeder didn't recognize that with each of his two line bred hounds it was time for an outcross. The breeder thought a little more of the same thing would be good. That is why I don't promote line breeding. It is hard for the ego to let go of a bloodline it has cultivated and share it with an outcross.

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Old Post 01-23-2018 12:30 PM
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CONRAD FRYAR
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Northwest Georgia
Posts: 1142

Bruce, The thing that i think most people do not understand is an actual "True" linebred animal. Most think because it has ole so so in there a couple times there line bred, not true.
Breed close, set traits and maintain them, then fined a complementary line to outcross to for Hybrid Vigor.

Nothing is exact in breeding but when you keep your linebred line going you can always go back to the "base paint" and tweak from there instead of starting from scratch.

I like his word, being Judicious on your crosses.
There is nothing in the world wrong with breeding tight on bloodlines, in fact its what we need a big dose off, from people who are judicious in there breeding.

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Old Post 01-23-2018 12:36 PM
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CONRAD FRYAR
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Northwest Georgia
Posts: 1142

Don't let the left wing foo foo breeders sway you Bruce! lol

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"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

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Old Post 01-23-2018 12:41 PM
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yadkintar
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 5603

The most valuable thing to a breeding program is the man making the crosses.
So many times they stack a bunch of family of dogs then when the pups are born they keep a pair and sell the rest and then they find out it did not work and they sell those pups too ! If a person is going to take up breeding dogs close in family's he needs to keep close contact with all offspring to eliminate the weak links. Buuuuuut I made a family cross that did not work the whole litter wasent even average I eliminated mine it was a seman cross it was expensive I sold the pups when they were little felt bad about it tried to get them back they wouldn't sell those worthless boogers to me they knew what I was going to do lol they bred them and they are reproducing good dogs I am scratching my head on that one lol.


Tar

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Old Post 01-23-2018 01:05 PM
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CONRAD FRYAR
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Northwest Georgia
Posts: 1142

Tar, I don't know so im asking?
One or two close crosses may not set the traits? So actually how tight were they? If there were several outside bloodlines up close you were still with a big ocean of genes.
Just wondering?

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'' Breeding-Bold and Beautiful, Balanced, Bawl Mouth Treeing Walkers"

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

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Old Post 01-23-2018 01:39 PM
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yadkintar
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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 5603

I bred Macie granny's littermate sister back to her grandfather her dads sire but after the fact I think quadrupling up on all those old time slow starting dogs was why it did not work. I hunted mine hard big powerful agile dog with a huge mouth would strike most of the tracks ahead of the dogs and take cold tracks away from them locate ahead of them and mill the tree would fight a coon hard if he could see it he would tree hard but you tie him at the tree he would be looking off like he was ready to go run anouther he was two I put a ton of coons out to him I finally couldn't stand it no more all his littermates but one are the same way.



Tar


But one of them is being hunted up in Virginia getting him ready for the hunts huge mouth way above average in abilitys he will be brought back down here to be campaigned.

Last edited by yadkintar on 01-23-2018 at 02:26 PM

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Old Post 01-23-2018 02:01 PM
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CONRAD FRYAR
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Northwest Georgia
Posts: 1142

Here is my new cross

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"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

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Old Post 01-23-2018 03:26 PM
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novicane65
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Registered: Dec 2013
Location: Nichols Ny
Posts: 813

quote:
Originally posted by CONRAD FRYAR
Bruce, The thing that i think most people do not understand is an actual "True" linebred animal. Most think because it has ole so so in there a couple times there line bred, not true.
Breed close, set traits and maintain them, then fined a complementary line to outcross to for Hybrid Vigor.

Nothing is exact in breeding but when you keep your linebred line going you can always go back to the "base paint" and tweak from there instead of starting from scratch.

I like his word, being Judicious on your crosses.
There is nothing in the world wrong with breeding tight on bloodlines, in fact its what we need a big dose off, from people who are judicious in there breeding.



So exactly how can you get back to the "base" paint? Not like you can uncross a few crosses. I understand you could possibly bred back to a sire from the line you started yours from. But what happens if you can't bred back to a sire? How would you be able to go back in a line you don't have any semen on?

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Old Post 01-23-2018 04:38 PM
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DMW
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2018
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 21

WESTWIND GSPs ... as featured in Gun Dog Magazine..

Pasted below is a part of an article focusing on line breeding and out crossing. Interesting read. See the entire artical at http://www.westwindgsps.com/linebreeding.htm

Dogs actually have more genes than humans. Tens of thousands of genes interact to produce a single dog. All genes are inherited in pairs, one from the sire and one from the dame. If the inherited genes from both parents are identical they are said to be homozygous. If the pair of inherited genes are not similar they are said to be heterozygous. The gene pairs that make a German Shorthair breed true to type are obviously homozygous. However, variable gene pairs like those that control coat color, size, scenting ability, etc. are still heterozygous within the breed as a whole.

Linebreeding concentrates the genes of a specific ancestor or ancestors through their appearance multiple times in a pedigree. When a specific ancestor appears more than once behind at least one animal on both the sire's side and yet another animal on the dame's side homozygosity for that animal's traits are possible.

However, if this specific ancestor appears only through a particular offspring of the ancestor in question then the Breeder is actually breeding on this offspring of the ancestor rather than on the ancestor itself. This is why having many "uncovered crosses" to a specific ancestor ( those that come through different offspring of this specific ancestor) gives the Breeder the greatest chance of making the desired traits of the specific ancestor homozygous.

Homozygosity greatly improves the chances that the resulting pups will in turn pass on the desired traits of the specific ancestor to their pups. When selecting pups from a line breed litter the Breeder must choose pups that display the desired traits of the specific ancestor or they have accomplished little. In fact, if these traits are not present in a linebred pup it is very likely that it inherited its genes from the remaining part of its pedigree and will be unable to breed true to type. Because the Breeder selected “out” for the pups that didn’t display this original ancestor’s traits.

Inbreeding significantly increases homozygosity, and therefore uniformity within a litter. One of the best methods of evaluating how successful a linebreeding has been is to gauge the similarity of the littermates as compared with pups of other litters with similar pedigrees. Considerable similarity among littermates tells the Breeder the genes have "nicked" or paired together as anticipated. The resulting pups will likely be able to pass these genes to the next generation.

Undesirable recessive genes are always masked by a dominant gene. Through inbreeding a rare recessive gene can be passed from a common ancestor on both the sire and the dame's side creating a homozygous recessive offspring. The resulting offspring actually displays the trait neither of their parents displayed ( even though both of them carried it ). Understand that inbreeding does not create undesirable genes it simply increases the chance that traits which are already present in a heterozygous state within the breed will be displayed.

Too many Breeders outcross as soon as an undesirable trait appears, blaming the problem on breeding "too close." Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact out-crossing insures that the undesirable trait will be carried generation after generation in a heterozygous recessive state only to rear its ugly head again and again. Therefore the Breeder who turns away from breeding “close” is simply passing a known problem on to succeeding generations and future Breeders.

When an undesirable trait is "unmasked" the Breeder who does his breed a real service is the one that stays with his line long enough to rid it of the undesirable trait. By controlling which specimens within their line are used for breeding in succeeding generations this Breeder can eliminate the undesirable trait. Once the recessive gene is removed it can never again affect the Breeder's line. Inbreeding doesn't cause good genes to mutate into bad genes it merely increases the likelihood that they will be displayed.

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