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Sonny Phipps
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2007
Location: Glenmont,Ohio
Posts: 843

Rule Question

I know the new rule situation has not even been officially put out to us at this time but has anyone thought about reducing the non working dog time? So much time and ink talking about dogs backing and scratching for fighting when they werenít fighting , leash locking , ect. But why in a one hour hunt can a dog not hunt for 14 min and still be consider a working dog?

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Old Post 10-03-2019 01:17 AM
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Rick St.Clair
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2004
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Posts: 290

Understand your point, I'd hope mine was out making something happen to where I dint have to worry about one beating me that was on break.

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Old Post 10-03-2019 01:30 AM
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Sonny Phipps
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2007
Location: Glenmont,Ohio
Posts: 843

I agree with you 100%. I also thought that if one is backing late all the time, I shouldnít have a lot to worry about it. It seems that good dogs are getting beat by the me too dog a lot.....

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Old Post 10-03-2019 02:02 AM
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Dave Richards
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Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 3430

Sonny

Are they really good dogs or just someone's idea of a good dog? If a backer or non hunting dog can beat you, you need to take a better look at what you are leading. I would love to draw those kind of dogs every cast, good dogs don't need an excuse to win. Lol. Dave

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Sonny Phipps
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2007
Location: Glenmont,Ohio
Posts: 843

Preach on brother Dave. But this forum is ate up with folks complaining how they getting beat by sorry dogs that get 75 tree points at the 4 min mark. Iíve been at this game a bit myself and whenever I got beat like that I found the reason on my leash , not a rule problem.

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Old Post 10-03-2019 04:30 PM
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Coby Wright
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2017
Location: Manchester, TN
Posts: 87

quote:
Originally posted by Sonny Phipps
I agree with you 100%. I also thought that if one is backing late all the time, I shouldnít have a lot to worry about it. It seems that good dogs are getting beat by the me too dog a lot.....


This doesn't happen in some of the other registries because points are reduced based on time. A dog backing late will likely only receive 25 tree points. Granted it doesn't eliminate it entirely, but makes it much harder for that dog to win.

The 50 point gap between first and second tree helps mitigate this some, but if you have a tight mouth loner you could still get beat. This has been a complaint about UKC since I started hunting back in the 90's.

For example, if they are hunting an "automatic" strike dog and taking second tree on every coon they will be hard to beat by a dog getting last strike and first tree.

I personally usually hunt (or prefer) dogs that are first or second strike dogs and first tree dogs that are independent but will back as well. However I've seen some very nice dogs lose to dogs that did very little if any of the work.

I also agree with the non working dog statement. I think the time needs to be adjusted to be proportional to the hunt time. 15 minutes might be okay for a 2 hour hunt but it's a significant percentage of an hour hunt.

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T Felderman
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2005
Location: Bellevue, IA
Posts: 1725

If your gonna mess with a rule I'd be looking at the 2 minute rule on tree. Now that they only have to tree for 3 minutes and bark once every 2 minutes is a joke. jmho

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Dave Richards
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 3430

Sonny phipps

I would enjoy hunting with you, I like a man that tell it like it is and DOES NOT make excuses for his dog. The best get beat sometimes, that's just the way things are, but a really good dog will win most of the time regardless of the rules. Dave

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Old Post 10-03-2019 09:24 PM
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shadinc
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 2122

Re: Rule Question

quote:
Originally posted by Sonny Phipps
I know the new rule situation has not even been officially put out to us at this time but has anyone thought about reducing the non working dog time? So much time and ink talking about dogs backing and scratching for fighting when they werenít fighting , leash locking , ect. But why in a one hour hunt can a dog not hunt for 14 min and still be consider a working dog?
Could it be because he's working for 46 minutes?

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Old Post 10-04-2019 12:59 AM
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wadepardue
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2012
Location: columbus ms.
Posts: 193

None-Working Dog

When you have major concerns about a dog that is following the cast around, then you might won't to take a hard look at what you just turned loose...

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Old Post 10-04-2019 01:28 AM
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Dave Richards
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Posts: 3430

Wade

Excuses are just a way of saying I need a better dog. I don't care what the other digs do in any cast I am hunting in, I am only interested in what my dog does. Way too many folks are more interested in other folks dogs than their own dog. MAKE no excuses, call you dog for what it does and let the chips fall where they belong. If your dog is ready for competition, then you should not need any excuses, excuses are nothing more than a lack of dog power. Dave

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Old Post 10-04-2019 01:43 AM
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Sonny Phipps
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2007
Location: Glenmont,Ohio
Posts: 843

personally usually hunt (or prefer) dogs that are first or second strike dogs and first tree dogs that are independent but will back as well. However I've seen some very nice dogs lose to dogs that did very little if any of the work.


I understand what your saying, but can you say without a doubt that the above mentioned dog was trying to tree a coon the whole time it was loose in the cast? I know situations unfold and it happens, but not very often. Same way with a dog that backs a lot. Most of the time ďthe good dogĒ wasnít doing his 100% either. JMO

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Old Post 10-04-2019 01:55 AM
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Sonny Phipps
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2007
Location: Glenmont,Ohio
Posts: 843

You guys are all saying what Iíve been saying. Rules donít need changed as bad as many people preach they do. I promise a coon treeing coon dog that won before will still win under the new rules. Good dogs will win period. You can come with 100 scenarios of what was wrong, but most of it was what we are packing. A non working dog has and can win, same as a backing type dog but itís not that often if what you or me are hunting is truly trying to tree coons all of the time.

True coonhounds come in many styles, the old rules maybe favored a open trailing type dog that can work in a pack, but a silent loner would still win if it was a COONDOG, the newest rules now favor a silent loner & they will be at a bit more advantage & will bred for more.

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Old Post 10-04-2019 02:04 AM
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bigdiezel79
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2008
Location: norlina nc
Posts: 532

Not sure Iím a fan of the new rules. If a me too dog is winning a hunt, that would mean that the lazy hound is beating you to the tree and or you arenít calling your dog treed.. or am I totally missing something here?

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Old Post 10-04-2019 02:18 AM
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Coby Wright
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2017
Location: Manchester, TN
Posts: 87

quote:
Originally posted by Sonny Phipps
I understand what your saying, but can you say without a doubt that the above mentioned dog was trying to tree a coon the whole time it was loose in the cast? I know situations unfold and it happens, but not very often. Same way with a dog that backs a lot. Most of the time ďthe good dogĒ wasnít doing his 100% either. JMO


I can't say it was trying to tree a coon anymore than I can say the dog running around barking was trying to tree a coon. I can only say what it looks like.

I don't make excuses for my dogs. I'm just commenting on what I've seen. I don't have a problem hunting against these dogs as I currently have dogs that are often carrying 1st or 2nd strike.

With that said, we've all hunted with the dog that starts barking when you are getting ready to cast then never stops barking. I don't allow my dogs to do that. I don't have a clue what any dog is actually out there doing. They could be walking around looking for a place to poop and accidentally walk up on a coon and the barking dog could be chasing the other dogs or they could both be looking/trailing a coon.

However, if one dog is trailing for 20 minutes then stops and makes a b-line to the dog that just got treed I'm going to give credit to the one that actually made the tree, not the one grubbing out a track regardless of which dog is mine or if neither are mine. (and at least one of mine has been guilty of doing this)

Also, I never said my dog was the "good" dog in this situation. I'm currently hunting a couple of big pups so they are rarely the "good" dog in the group. However, my statement still remains true. Those types of dogs do win more often in UKC than they do in PKC or CHKC and it's simply because the point structure is in their favor.

Everyone has their preferences and hunting styles. Some folks want the dog that will quit their track and back because they like to hunt with buddies and don't like walking to split trees all night or standing around listening to a cold track. I understand that and I'm just stating my opinion based on years of competition hunting in all registries and titling dogs in all of them.

Cheers,
Coby

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Old Post 10-04-2019 02:54 AM
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Sonny Phipps
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2007
Location: Glenmont,Ohio
Posts: 843

Well said coby. Iím not trying to differ from what u say or like, sounds like we like similar types. Iím simply pointing out what I see the future bringing .

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Old Post 10-04-2019 03:42 AM
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Redneck Mafia
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 4188

quote:
Originally posted by bigdiezel79
Not sure Iím a fan of the new rules. If a me too dog is winning a hunt, that would mean that the lazy hound is beating you to the tree and or you arenít calling your dog treed.. or am I totally missing something here?

It all depends on it's strike. Remember there are 3 other dogs it can cover. A dog that is struck high that may tree it's own coon even once but is just covering around is dangerous in a cast and can be hard to beat. The ones actually running the track no one finds as frustrating as the one that just covers to be going to another dog.

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