Registered: Aug 2004
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Now this is just my opinion of course and shouldn't be taken as fact but linebreeding should get you a uniform litter of good pups if you have done it correctly. Outcrossing one of those good hounds to an excellent hound will get you one great pup out of a litter. If you want one World Champion then outcross. If you want a bunch of good pups then linebreed.

Last edited by Richard Lambert on 01-16-2018 at 02:43 PM

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It seems to me the question keeps going back and forth, Can you produce a freak? Or can you produce a consistent line of dogs?
Or What is the bar? for a Good line of dogs, Do they have to be first strike babbling idiots that have a coon, or can they be a pleasure to hunt?
Seems to me the problem is we are all over the place in breeding.

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I'm with you Richard! Got to know what your after.

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Thank goodness everyone doesn't like the same type of hound and everyone doesn't have the same opinion of how to breed that type of hound. How boring would that be? We would have to go back to arguing about lights.

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Conrad...glad someone also agrees with that “AIR” look in the dog and pup...
I like breeding my own dogs so I can see the pups on a daily basis...I like this so I can see more or less see how their brain works amongst other things...

What I am trying to understand why is it that many pups are culls from proven champion heritage that are line bred...it almost sounds to me that the rules need to be changed on what makes champion dogs...

Is it easy to cheat? Can a great handler make a champion out of a cull? Is there too much luck involved in making a champion?

Does there need to be a minimum requirement as to what a dog needs just to enter a competition hunt?

The reason I ask these questions is how could there be so many culls from well thought out line breedings where the pedigrees are stacked with championship dogs? Seems like the system is not where it needs to be...not trying to step on any toes just wanting some logical explanations from the experienced Doggers on here...

Just like anything else...there is a reason for this...once we understand it we can improve on it or accept it for what it is...

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Reuben, I don't think it is the system. In UKC for the ALL Grand Pedigrees I know a few corners can be cut. After all it only takes 5 wins to be Grand Nite and that doesn't have to be against competition. When a dog has won over $25,000 all over the country I can assure you that dog will put a coon up a bush. Doesn't mean he or she will reproduce but means you can probably count on it treeing a coon.

I think it is in the breeding and too much of a good thing might not always work when it comes to coon dogs. Might be a fine line in what makes one good and what makes one crazy. Line breeding might cross that line.

Lets roll the clock back a few years and lets use UKC measuring stick for this discussion. There use to be six breeds of registered UKC Coonhounds. B&T, Redbones, Plott, English, Blue Ticks and Walkers. If you listed them in order using the top sires in each breed with the percentage of champions made you will see one thing. You will see the Walkers with the highest percentage followed by the English. Both above 10% then on the bottom you will see the plott and just above it the redbone. Both below 5%. Now look at the gene pool for each dog and you see the ones with the restricted color pattern to allow registration has the lowest percentage of reproducing sires. Their gene pool is restricted while the walkers and english have plenty of outcrosses in their blood that registering by color don't eliminate. Line breeding also restricts the gene pool. The guy that says he knows what is is doing says "heck yea". I am restricting the unwanted genes. While I say. The only thing he is restricting is the ability of his hounds. In Theory it works. Take Lipper. Lipper won National Championship, Son of Lipper won National Championships. His son Adios Eagle won Two National Championships. What are all these semen line bred Lipper dogs winning. Might be great guys doing it. Might me some fair hounds from the outcome. I am too old to be happy with fair. I need Greatness in my life.

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Last edited by Bruce m. Conkey on 01-16-2018 at 05:40 PM

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Breeding a freak...I reckon when someone uses this terminology it means a hunting dog above all the rest like a once in a lifetime dog...

My logic tells me two things...

1. This dog is so far from the normal that the trait or traits the dog displays are unique to him...

2. Because his traits are way above normal that when bred he will only pass what is normal...normal can even be excellent hunting dogs but not once in a lifetime dogs...because those are truly once in a lifetime dogs...

Some things I have seen that makes me believe in my theory...but I will only use two for examples...

A friend had an English bulldog that the neighbors dog (a lab) jumped the fence and bred her...labs tend to look like normal every day dogs...and the English bulldog deviates quite a bit from the normal...10 pups looked like average looking dogs and one looked more likes pit bull...

Secretariat was a great racehorse as was already mentioned here...one of the reasons what made him great was his oversized heart...but there are other reasons besides his heart because other racehorses have had larger than normal hearts...he was bred many times and he never reproduced himself...all I can say is he was too far from the normal...that is an easy explanation but what are the reasons for that to happen?

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Thanks for your reply Bruce...

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Some of the culls can be blamed on handling and training. How can I say this? Just post a question on the best way to start a pup and you will get 100 different sure fire methods.

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The most successful breeders that I've observed over the last 45 years were hunters whos dogs put food on the hunters table. If the dogs didn't produce game then everybody went hungry. Those hunters didn't share their dogs with anyone for fear that their neighbors would harvest the limited game. This forced them to linebreed and breed their own dogs. When money became the source of putting food on the table the quality of the dogs decreased. It was easier to sell a cull.
I'm not a competition hunter, but the last 5 years I've had the resources to hunt in a few bigger hunts and the biggest disappointment was not seeing the outstanding level of ability that is suppose to be out there. Selection is the key to breeding better dogs and the current evaluation processes being used by the Kennel Clubs are poor systems for evaluating ability. I see a lot of hunters putting food on the table in very unethical ways. Ken Risley

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Was Mr Clean from an accidental breeding?
How about Sackett Jr?
How about Rat Attack?

---

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What type of hunting dog does it take to make a nite champion?

What type of hunting dog does it take to make a grand night champion?

What is the difference between a top pleasure hound that looks good in any company compared to the average grand night champion...does the grand night champion have to pass decent tracks looking to tree a coon ASAP to acquire that title?

A great pleasure hound that looks good in any company should be the same dog that can win a grand night championship...if not then there is a problem...IMO

Hopefully someone can explain this so I can better understand competition night hunts?

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Elvis, Clean could get er dun. A lot of big winning dogs that I have seen could simply tree coons. They didn't have an "air". They weren't what I would call "flashy". But they could sure tree coons when it counted. Who is responsible for his breeding? I have no idea who/what dogs are behind him? I have researched the history/breeding behind the top Redbones and know what went into making them but I know very little about walkers.

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I honestly believe this, that we can control several things, like Bruce said...... looks , voice, ear etc.....
But i believe in each litter there are different levels of IQ that prevent some from being as good as others, they have hang ups if you will, and just don't make a complete hound.
That is why i believe it is so hard to breed consistently, it is a great part mental to combine all the things a coonhound must do well.

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Registered: Jan 2018
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Thanks again for the responses, I appreciate you all taking the time to post the information.

First, I apologize for stating that "it's pretty much a proven fact Line breeding works." I typed this without thinking much about it.. I think I stated it because I've been fortunate to have owned some line bred dogs I really liked and I felt that it was looked on as a positive method if done correctly etc.. I think that it is a method that has worked really well in some cases with dogs and worked really well with many other animals. I do not think line breeding is the only way to go... or a dog has to be line bred to be a good coon hound. I thought the majority of coonhunters looked at line breeding (with dogs they like, with the traits they like and without the bad traits they don't like to keep this short as possible) as a method of increasing the odds. I'm sorry if I was mistaking.

I am learning many things from this post and that was my goal. I hope other people are reading as well and learning as I am.. So feel free to give me more info, recommend books, articles, websites, videos, etc. etc. etc. on breeding dogs, genetics and what ever else about this subject you would like to share.

Thanks again!!!

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DMW, Your not mistaken on breeding, many of us are in the line breeding camp also, others are in the outcrossing camp( best to the Best) they are all tools and the more you learn, you will see sometimes they need to be line bred and sometimes there needs to be an outcross. But always have a vision for where you want them to go.

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Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Elvis, Clean could get er dun. A lot of big winning dogs that I have seen could simply tree coons. They didn't have an "air". They weren't what I would call "flashy". But they could sure tree coons when it counted. Who is responsible for his breeding? I have no idea who/what dogs are behind him? I have researched the history/breeding behind the top Redbones and know what went into making them but I know very little about walkers.

---

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Just somthing to think about lol. Most everybody has had that one once in a lifetime dog I have. I have bred his offspring from every angle although I have raised dogs that tree coons nothing thus far has even came close to him. I even bred his daughter back to her grandpa ( his sire ) and that cross was a complete flop !! It just happens when it happens and when it does sombody with deep pockets usually buys them promotes them and takes all the credit when in reality it was and accident everything just lined up the right way that time. Buy the way my once in a lifetime dog was the only one in that litter that worked the rest of the litter were mediocre at best.



Tar

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Thanks Mr. Conrad. I am definitely taking and applying your info and advice.

I have another question. Someone stated in a post...

Some of the traits I desire are recessive; outstanding tracking ability and intelligence are examples. A dominant trait I don't want is aggressive, alpha behavior.

Does a list traits exist that tells if they are dominant or recessive?

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Color...as mentioned is easy to reproduce because we can see it...but why is it that a red dog can come in different shades of red even when linebred?
We can breed a red dog to a black dog and get pups that are red and some that are black...or we can get all black pups...

If we get red and black pups in the same litter we can believe that the red dog passed a red gene for the color red and the black dog passed a red gene as well to the red pup...this also means that the black dog is carrying a red gene as a recessive for color and a black gene which is dominant...

If all the pups from the same parents are black then we know for certain the black parent inherited a black gene from his dam and also a black gene from his sire...we also know when crossing a black dog that carries both black genes that when it is bred to a red dog that all pups will be black...but these pups will produce some black pups and some red pups when bred to a red dog...

The black puppies from a red parent and black parent inherited a black gene and a red gene...so these pups when in the future are bred to a red dog then you should see both colors in the litter...

This is simple enough yet complicated because of all the different scenarios...

Now getting back to the different shades of red...or even the amount of merling in a Merle dog...what causes the different shades are amount of merling or even the different lengths of hair...I think that hunting/treeing traits work in the same manner...some have more and some have less...l believe that some of these differences are not genes nor DNA components but they are components associated with genes and DNA...

This is why I believe in breeding best to best within a linebred family...outcrossing once to freshen up a bloodline can bring in unwanted traits so one must be sure the new dog has the same qualities as your dogs and better as well... and this dogs sire and dam should be of the same caliber...this way the right recessive genes line up from each parent and the right dominant genes pass along from each parent as well as the associated bundles of components...again some is fact and some is theory...

I like to say that the best defense is a great offense...by breeding best to best within a family of hunting dogs...but the first thing... one must really know what a great hunting dog...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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In the 70s a couple of the books I read were "The Coonhunter Handbook" by Leon Whitney, D.M.V. , "Breeding Better Dogs" by Phillip Onstott and Martin Clems book on the development of the White Cloud strain based on well over 2000 dogs that he had raised. I've kept the same linebred strain since the 70s and kept a lot of notes for personal use. I'm sure there are more recent studies and books. Google it! Ken Risley

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When breeding the "best to the best" just how do you determine what"the best" is? Coonhounds have many traits.... nose, brains, tree, track, hunt, independance, mouth, to name a few. You won't find one hound with the best of all of them. So you have to pick one with the better part of the traits that each person values the most. And then you have to look at the traits possessed by the sire and dam and try to figure out how the two will go together. If you just breed two good dogs together, then your odds of getting a good pup are probably only about 5-10%.
And also you have to consider just how much "training" played a part in a hound becoming one of the "best". Breeding the "best to the best" sounds easy. But if done correctly, it can be just as complicated as any other method of breeding.
And don't get me started on breeding "winners to winners". Surely everyone knows how many outside influences go into determining whether a dog is a winner or not.

Last edited by Richard Lambert on 01-17-2018 at 02:39 PM

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What is most important in a breeding program? No really i am asking?

Some say Accuracy, Some say, Stay put tree dog, some say i want a track dog#1.
We "can" guide them in that direction by breeding for those traits, but remember when something moves to the front it pushes something to the back.
(This has nothing to do with one hit wonders, they are wildcards.)
Can you guide anything in a direction by constantly mixing up the genes? Yes there are more variables in breeding Coonhounds
but you have to start somewhere, you have to have a constant base of blood to play with, then you can try for the wildcard.
Joe House understood that, Finley River understood, Yadkin River breeders did, did some become blind later on probably, but that was not the systems fault.

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Thats right Richard you are correct with your questions.. I take the dogs that are the best for me in my conditions. If the hound has the genetics for me to train it or for it to win with my handler. I feel it has the genetics for me to breed. The genetics in all the dogs I own are already proven as winners. I have two directly out of Zeb Again, one directly out of Bone, One directly out of Molls Sockett dog and one out of Drop Dead Fred and one out of River Bend Lonesome. I just have to take the offspring and continue on. Then that is easy for me to say. Because, I don't sell any pups and they don't have to meet anyones standard but mine.
I might give a pup or two away. If I do and they are duds, I only hope the person does the right thing. Older dogs that don't make it don't stay here. Why would I sell a dog that trees coon like it should. They have been to hard to come by.
Take the past few months for example. Deer season with our running hounds have been in. I started a couple young dogs. Didn't see greatness but did see solid average ability for being less than a year old and hunted just a few times. I gave them away last week. They have good homes which I feel good about and thats what is important to me. They are both with friends and if I want to go hear them run thats no problem either. If they keep getting better and I want to breed to one of them someday, thats no problem either.
I get e-mails, PM's everyday from someone wanting to know if I have a pup for sale. Answer is always NO.
If, I ever do have a decent dog and I have to sell it. Enough people have seen it for me to make a call or two and it will
find a good home.

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Mr Conrad, to me track, tree, accuracy is all one parameter. When you try to add more track/accuracy then you have to sacrifice some tree. When you try to add some tree then you sacrifice some accuracy. Now then you have to factor in how much of this parameter is natural or born in and how much is trained or manmade. Almost all good trainers will tell you that they can take some tree out but they can't add it in. It is no wonder breeding is so complicated. You walk a very fine line trying to get that "balance" while still improving a line of hounds.

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