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Rip
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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

quote:
Originally posted by thomasg
so if your dog has the bad gene then every breeding pair in its pedigree would have passed it from generation to generation to him . is that correct rip ? just like say a blue eye or different coat color it might pop up to be noticed years latter in a particular line .that is why i believe from my pedigree studies every dog in the historical reproducers list and their litter mates all have the recessive gene passed from line breeding winners to winners from to small a gene pool.


In order for a recessive gene to be expressed that means both copies of that individual have to be the recessive gene.

That individual can ONLY throw the recessive gene because that is all it has.

If you breed that individual to another individual that expresses the recessive gene then ALL of the offspring will have the disease because the dominant normal gene does NOT exist in those two individuals. They don't have a good gene to pass down, all they have is the recessive so it is impossible for the offspring to NOT have the disease.

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Old Post 05-22-2018 05:10 AM
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Sonny Phipps
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Registered: Sep 2007
Location: Glenmont,Ohio
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quote:
Originally posted by Rip
In order for a recessive gene to be expressed that means both copies of that individual have to be the recessive gene.

That individual can ONLY throw the recessive gene because that is all it has.

If you breed that individual to another individual that expresses the recessive gene then ALL of the offspring will have the disease because the dominant normal gene does NOT exist in those two individuals. They don't have a good gene to pass down, all they have is the recessive so it is impossible for the offspring to NOT have the disease.



I understand what you are stating here and I am assuming you are correct but I don't know it to be a fact. If it is true about the recessive (I believe it is) then I would say is as houndsmen (especially) walkers had better just learn how to treat this thyroid issue cause we will never get away from it. JMO

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Old Post 05-22-2018 11:48 AM
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thomasg
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Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
I sure don't like the thyroid issue but coon hunters are tuff and the sky isn't falling. If you use it for an excuse for a poor quality hound, that is your problem. The quality of hound I am interested in can perform with or without a thyroid issue. We proved that last weekend one day after I found out the dog had very low numbers. Still won us close to $500 bucks for the weekend and had one enjoyable pleasure hunt this week with him between the rain storms.


His Thyroid is one concern and his hard head is another. I will work on the hard head and let the vet give us a plan for the thyroid.

bruce the quality of hound i am looking for is one that does not have a genetic marker that would make it more prone to have a thyroid issue in its life time . one from parents that are in a data bank registry to make the odds better not to have to run back and forth to the vet and feed it pills every day at some time in its life to keep it healthy .

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Old Post 05-22-2018 03:14 PM
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Jgarrett
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Registered: Jul 2012
Location: AR
Posts: 291

Re: Re: Re: ???

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
Well the causes I listed are actual PROVEN causes, it is a known fact that Injury, Iodine deficiency, Pituitary dysfunction, excessive thyroid supplementation, genetics, cancer, Radiation, Virus/bacterial infection and autoimmune diseases cause hypothyroidism. That's not a guess that's a fact. Those are all causes.

Where it becomes a guessing game is which cause is the reason a particular dog has thyroid disease.

If you have a genetic marker for it then that would take that part of the guess work out.



I don’t disagree with what you said here but I think it is speculation that a dog pulling on a lead strap or e collars are causing injury to the thyroid gland. If you have proof of that I would like to see it.

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Old Post 05-22-2018 03:22 PM
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Rip
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

Re: Re: Re: Re: ???

quote:
Originally posted by Jgarrett
I don’t disagree with what you said here but I think it is speculation that a dog pulling on a lead strap or e collars are causing injury to the thyroid gland. If you have proof of that I would like to see it.


No just trauma in general IMO it could be caused by one that is crazy and runs to the end of his tie out over and over or somebody that fries a dog over and over could probably cause it as well but I would think it would have to be pretty extreme for either of them to cause it (e collar may have more potential to do it than trauma due to the currents but who knows??) Either way I don't think any ordinary use of either collar would cause a problem.

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Old Post 05-23-2018 01:52 AM
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Rip
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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

quote:
Originally posted by Sonny Phipps
I understand what you are stating here and I am assuming you are correct but I don't know it to be a fact. If it is true about the recessive (I believe it is) then I would say is as houndsmen (especially) walkers had better just learn how to treat this thyroid issue cause we will never get away from it. JMO


Yes it is true however there are other factors.

For example some traits are multifactoral and multiple genes cause something, not just one so there is that.


There is also the incomplete dominance issue. Humans only have two eye colors, blue and brown. Blue is recessive. Green, Hazel etc happen when the the person has a brown gene and a blue gene and the brown isn't completely dominant over the blue so you get green.

See how complex it can get?

But yes as a rule a recessive gene is the EASIEST to keep if it is a desirable trait because if they have the trait they only have the recessive gene to give, breed two that have it and all the pups have it.
However it is also the HARDEST to get rid of if it is an undesirable trait because the dominant gene can mask individuals that have a copy of the dominant and recessive gene.

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Old Post 05-23-2018 01:56 AM
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Bruce m. Conkey
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Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
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.

Something I find interesting but not unexpected. About everyday of my life I am around some type of hound hunter. Not particularly coon hunters but a lot of deer hunters with hounds. bear hunters and cat hunters. These guys that are at the top of their game have some nice straight hounds. The past couple weeks I have made it a point that when our conversations about their hounds end. I ask them if they have experienced any thyroid issues with their hounds. They give me a blank stare and want to know what I am talking about as they never heard of it.

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Old Post 05-23-2018 03:40 AM
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thomasg
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Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
Something I find interesting but not unexpected. About everyday of my life I am around some type of hound hunter. Not particularly coon hunters but a lot of deer hunters with hounds. bear hunters and cat hunters. These guys that are at the top of their game have some nice straight hounds. The past couple weeks I have made it a point that when our conversations about their hounds end. I ask them if they have experienced any thyroid issues with their hounds. They give me a blank stare and want to know what I am talking about as they never heard of it.
i find it ironic a person who breeds dogs and sells them for pets are years ahead of hound owners on health issues. almost every breed ass. or club in the top 20 of the s.m.u. study have a section on their web site addressing thyroids . we could learn a lot i bet attending some of those big all breed shows , and asking questions on forums to pet owners on health issues and better breeding practices .

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Old Post 05-23-2018 04:16 AM
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Bruce m. Conkey
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Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 5103

.

Thomas many look to our vets to educate us. I think help on the subject is lacking in a way that is useful to performance dogs.

Thomas I can't find much respect in the people behind the puppies for pets industry. These pups are just numbers to most of them. If it walks, eats and looks cute it will steal the heart of the owners who know very little about dogs. Most of them get a lot of LOVE but not a love that is beneficial to them. Just like the kids today. I held my kinds to a standard just like I do my coondogs. There are a lot of parents that you would think love their kids more than I did mine. Those kids are so blinded by their parents they can't function in the world. Just like many of the pet dogs. Half the people in the world with pet dogs can't open a door in their house without the dog racing outside, yapping at everything and peeing on everything. The love them and they would neve discipline them. Thats not love.

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Old Post 05-23-2018 12:11 PM
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thomasg
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Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
Thomas many look to our vets to educate us. I think help on the subject is lacking in a way that is useful to performance dogs.

Thomas I can't find much respect in the people behind the puppies for pets industry. These pups are just numbers to most of them. If it walks, eats and looks cute it will steal the heart of the owners who know very little about dogs. Most of them get a lot of LOVE but not a love that is beneficial to them. Just like the kids today. I held my kinds to a standard just like I do my coondogs. There are a lot of parents that you would think love their kids more than I did mine. Those kids are so blinded by their parents they can't function in the world. Just like many of the pet dogs. Half the people in the world with pet dogs can't open a door in their house without the dog racing outside, yapping at everything and peeing on everything. The love them and they would neve discipline them. Thats not love.

on vets if you dont educate yourself and ask a lot of questions when you visit them you will never get you moneys worth . on kids it is only the bad ones you hear about . just seen 2 parents on the news trying to evict there 30 year old son from their house on the news last night . lol i had my kid till me one time if i spanked her she was going to tell her teacher . it is the whole society we live live in now days that could use some fixing . reminds me of the cats in the cradle song . when ya coming home dad . dont know when . but will have a good time then son .you know will have a good time then .

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Old Post 05-23-2018 08:26 PM
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Bruce m. Conkey
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Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 5103

.

Thomas, I had a long conversation with a vet today and I discussed sending samples off to MSU and asked him if he was aware of their program about Thyroid concerns in dogs. He said he wasn't but he said if I wanted to send samples off he would collect them from my dogs for free and assist me in any way he could. He said he was only aware of one Thyroid panel test be that companies offered and that was from a company in a wester state. Cant remember the name he mentioned. I have a couple young males here that once the reach puberty, will get sampled.

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Old Post 05-23-2018 08:29 PM
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thomasg
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Registered: Apr 2014
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Posts: 1110

Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
Thomas, I had a long conversation with a vet today and I discussed sending samples off to MSU and asked him if he was aware of their program about Thyroid concerns in dogs. He said he wasn't but he said if I wanted to send samples off he would collect them from my dogs for free and assist me in any way he could. He said he was only aware of one Thyroid panel test be that companies offered and that was from a company in a wester state. Cant remember the name he mentioned. I have a couple young males here that once the reach puberty, will get sampled.
the 3rd vet i went to was familiar with the orthopedic foundation for animals . she has a account with s.m.u. .she is going to provide the services for the f.o.a. thyroid testing i want . she has done the f.o.a. testing for hips for a breeder of german shepherds that want the results in a data bank .. for the 15 $ fee f.o.a. gets the results of the test sent to them .then they evaluate the test and send you the results . if you sign the permission on the form they can post the results for the public if the test is positive so it can be used for the benefit of researchers . negative is entered for verification for research and breeders to look at to make better breeding choices . i will post my total cost of all this when it is done .you can also if for just your own use just have a test only for tgAA the marker for genetic done by tex .a.m. for a 18 $ fee per dog .

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Old Post 05-23-2018 11:34 PM
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thomasg
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Registered: Apr 2014
Location: batsville ark
Posts: 1110

Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
Thomas, I had a long conversation with a vet today and I discussed sending samples off to MSU and asked him if he was aware of their program about Thyroid concerns in dogs. He said he wasn't but he said if I wanted to send samples off he would collect them from my dogs for free and assist me in any way he could. He said he was only aware of one Thyroid panel test be that companies offered and that was from a company in a wester state. Cant remember the name he mentioned. I have a couple young males here that once the reach puberty, will get sampled.
the 3rd vet i went to was familiar with the orthopedic foundation for animals . she has a account with s.m.u. .she is going to provide the services for the f.o.a. thyroid testing i want . she has done the f.o.a. testing for hips for a breeder of german shepherds that want the results in a data bank .. for the 15 $ fee f.o.a. gets the results of the test sent to them .then they evaluate the test and send you the results . if you sign the permission on the form they can post the results for the public if the test is positive so it can be used for the benefit of researchers . negative is entered for verification for research and breeders to look at to make better breeding choices . i will post my total cost of all this when it is done .you can also if for just your own use just have a test only for tgAA the marker for genetic done by tex .a.m. for a 18 $ fee per dog .

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Old Post 05-23-2018 11:34 PM
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thomasg
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Location: batsville ark
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Re: Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by thomasg
the 3rd vet i went to was familiar with the orthopedic foundation for animals . she has a account with s.m.u. .she is going to provide the services for the f.o.a. thyroid testing i want . she has done the f.o.a. testing for hips for a breeder of german shepherds that want the results in a data bank .. for the 15 $ fee f.o.a. gets the results of the test sent to them .then they evaluate the test and send you the results . if you sign the permission on the form they can post the results for the public if the test is positive so it can be used for the benefit of researchers . negative is entered for verification for research and breeders to look at to make better breeding choices . i will post my total cost of all this when it is done .you can also if for just your own use just have a test only for tgAA the marker for genetic done by tex .a.m. for a 18 $ fee per dog .
tex a.m. does the f.o.a. test as well .

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Old Post 05-23-2018 11:36 PM
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IAHUNTER
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Thyroid

Bruce
I agree 100%!!

many look to our vets to educate us. I think help on the subject is lacking in a way that is useful to performance dogs.

Thomas I can't find much respect in the people behind the puppies for pets industry. These pups are just numbers to most of them. If it walks, eats and looks cute it will steal the heart of the owners who know very little about dogs. Most of them get a lot of LOVE but not a love that is beneficial to them. Just like the kids today. I held my kinds to a standard just like I do my coondogs. There are a lot of parents that you would think love their kids more than I did mine. Those kids are so blinded by their parents they can't function in the world. Just like many of the pet dogs. Half the people in the world with pet dogs can't open a door in their house without the dog racing outside, yapping at everything and peeing on everything. The love them and they would neve discipline them. Thats not love.

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joey
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Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
I ask them if they have experienced any thyroid issues with their hounds. They give me a blank stare and want to know what I am talking about as they never heard of it.



10 years ago we had the same look.

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thomasg
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Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
I sure don't like the thyroid issue but coon hunters are tuff and the sky isn't falling. If you use it for an excuse for a poor quality hound, that is your problem. The quality of hound I am interested in can perform with or without a thyroid issue. We proved that last weekend one day after I found out the dog had very low numbers. Still won us close to $500 bucks for the weekend and had one enjoyable pleasure hunt this week with him between the rain storms.


His Thyroid is one concern and his hard head is another. I will work on the hard head and let the vet give us a plan for the thyroid.

your lucky hunting him with low numbers he did not have a heat stroke and cause permanent damage to his brain . once the damage is done next comes the seizures that cant be controlled by medication . when a dogs thyroid level is low the are susceptible to hypothermia in cold weather .heat stokes in the summer .you need to carry a thermometer to monitor temp. if you are hunting a thyroid dog . same with one that has had a tick disease . 101 to 102.5 is normal . so what kind of plan does your vet have ?i thyroid dog can be expensive to own . average cost for a thyroid panel is 218 $. meds run around 30$ per month. you should be taking your dog in for a panel every 30 days for the first 3 months to get his levels checked to adjust his meds, as needed . the thyroid could still be producing some hormone witch make it hard to correct properly with the meds. . make sure the meds. are given as close to 12 hours apart as you can and 1 hour before or after feeding because they bind with food and are ineffective . you might also want to add some test for liver and kidney function . best of luck .fixing the thyroid function in a dog that is expected to still operate at a peek performance level is not a easy thing to accomplish .

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Bruce m. Conkey
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.

Vets plan is one pill a day. A dog that I own can operate at a level way below all the other good dogs out there and still make me happy. I just want to tree a few coon and win a cast or two.

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thomasg
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Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
Vets plan is one pill a day. A dog that I own can operate at a level way below all the other good dogs out there and still make me happy. I just want to tree a few coon and win a cast or two.
one pill a day would most likely mean that mongos thyroid is still got some of its normal function left . i have heard of a few dogs that were put on meds. that the thyroid repaired its self and meds, were no longer needed . still yet i would check his temp. now and then while hunting just to be safe . heck if i go to a hunt and finish with plus points i leave happy.lol i know that jed carried a thermometer to check traders temp . because of tick issues . i have talked to a couple folks have had thyroid problems with their dogs that carry a thermometer as well .

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Bruce m. Conkey
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.

It was a .5 when he was checked. Problem is that all the vets handle these issues differently. My vet told me that new information out said once a day was enough. My reading on the subject does't agree with him. But since I pay him for advice I will take it for now.

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Here Nathan Phoenix

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