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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 17437

It sounds like Big Country is definitely not "mixed up junk".

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ov_blues
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2007
Location: Pomeroy, Ohio
Posts: 2591

quote:
Originally posted by Sgraves
Remember the dog called bo Jackson . Does he go back to any of that? I liked him.


Does have Rambo II on top. Bottom side is PR dogs but those PR dogs from down there might just be a little better than the lack of a title indicates. Seems like they have produced some winners but don't get any attention except in a very small circle down south.

---------CH GRNITECH 'PR' MANNS' WILD-N-BLUE SPANKY II
------GRCH GRNITECH 'PR' BOONE'S MACKIE CREEK BO
---------'PR' WADSWORTHS TOPGUN BLUE SHADOW
---GRNITECH GRCH 'PR' MACKIE CREEK BO JACK
---------GRNITECH GRCH 'PR' SMILEY'S RAMBO II
------GRNITECH GRCH 'PR' FLINTHILLS BLUE ANGEL
---------'PR' FLINTHILLS BLUE SADE
Mighty Mud Creek Bo Jackson
---------'PR' BROOKS' LIL JACK DANIELS
------'PR' HALL'S WOLF RIVER SHORTY
---------'PR' SMITHS WOLF RIVER BLUE-VELVET
---'PR' GHOST BLUE DIAMOND
---------'PR' HALL'S BLUE DIAMOND DOC
------'PR' HALL'S BLUE DIAMOND
---------'PR' BOWLES' BLUE BELL

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John Smith
Ohio Valley Bluetick Kennel

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Old Post 09-12-2019 08:36 PM
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Dave Richards
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 3289

Mr. Lambert

If you would stop ranting about everything, you might just read more carefully. I only mentioned the fox dogs, beagles, bird dogs, stag hounds , cur dogs to clarify that most every breed popular theses days has these genes running through their blood. Redbones, Walkers, English and Bluetick are a mixture of these dogs and more. As a Redbones breeder you should know the history of the Redbones, correct me if they don't have any of this offblood in them. For the record the t gene you mentioned is usually only found in the short tailed dog breeds, you might want to research this. I absolutely know that it is a serious fault in the Redbone breed, maybe a cur dog in the wood pile. I did hint at the possibility of putting something back in a certain breed if the desired trait was getting to weak. I bet you the original breeders of our breeds did not care who liked what they were breeding, they were trying to please themselves. If everyone thought like you about breeding, there would be no established breeds as we know them today. I only suggest that some of the desirable traits in certain breeds may have become watered down and not so dominant these days. Put it back or do without, the choice is in your hands. If you think your breed is at its best and can't be improved, just keep winning, if not you may want to make a behind the barn cross. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

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dave01
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2012
Location: westfield n.c
Posts: 166

well look at it this way, years ago my grandpa and my dad had pretty nice dogs over the years,they didnt breed for papers or pedigree they bred coon dog to coon dog , if the man in the next county had a nice male dog they would breed a good female to him and come out with some pretty nice hounds , didnt matter about color or breed back then at all, and now i am thinking about doing the same thing,maybe putting some of the traits that i am looking for in my pups that i am looking for who knows i might come out with a nice xbred pup , time will tell

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David Bennett

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ov_blues
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2007
Location: Pomeroy, Ohio
Posts: 2591

I was hunting a beautiful bluetick female one night. She was out of one of the females from a cross that was at that time the most successful percentage wise in producing Nt Ch's and Gr Nt's. I was leading her around a cut corn field back going back to the truck when a grouse flew up. She locked up into the prettiest pointer stance that you could possibly ever see. I've never seen a hound do that before. She had a pretty set of papers on her that was Purple Ribbon bred for generations. I just shook my head and said to myself "something isn't right with those papers" lol.

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John Smith
Ohio Valley Bluetick Kennel

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Roy Grant
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2013
Location:
Posts: 1246

One of the best hounds I owned was out of Maniac..he could point a bird with the best. He could tree a coon at 12 degrees in a foot of snow as well. But we all know where that came from...

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Sgraves
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2017
Location:
Posts: 234

quote:
Originally posted by Roy Grant
One of the best hounds I owned was out of Maniac..he could point a bird with the best. He could tree a coon at 12 degrees in a foot of snow as well. But we all know where that came from...
Did you have him collected? I need some of that . Multi purpose meat dog.As they say, he is the right kind.

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Dave Richards
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 3289

Dogs

Breeding coondog to coondog was a method that worked for many years in these mountains. It was rare to even see a registered or purebred hound. People bred for the traits they wanted in a dog, nose, track, tree, etc. We can still do these things today, albeit with a smaller gene pool by cross Breeding the recognized hound breeds and still register the dogs. While we may not have the total freedom of making any kind of cross and still register our dogs we have at least opened up our gene pool beyond just one breed of hound. What is more important, a PR in front of your papers or improving the dogs you hunt? Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

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Old Post 09-13-2019 07:44 PM
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Al Medcalf
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2005
Location: Barnesville, Ga.
Posts: 356

Re: Dogs

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Richards
Breeding coondog to coondog was a method that worked for many years in these mountains. It was rare to even see a registered or purebred hound. People bred for the traits they wanted in a dog, nose, track, tree, etc. We can still do these things today, albeit with a smaller gene pool by cross Breeding the recognized hound breeds and still register the dogs. While we may not have the total freedom of making any kind of cross and still register our dogs we have at least opened up our gene pool beyond just one breed of hound. What is more important, a PR in front of your papers or improving the dogs you hunt? Dave


GREAT POST!!!

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If It Climbs, It Ain't Trash

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Old Post 09-13-2019 08:38 PM
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yadkinriver
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Yadkin County NC
Posts: 1203

A man that doesn't breed, raise or train wouldn't understand the pride in raising good pr bred dogs. Is your once in a lifetime 14 yr old dog pr bred or xbred? You stated you won't buy but the best so how many xbred do you own? WQhy are you so , in your own words, passionate about xbreds? Unlike Tar, I've not heard anything about a son to pass your heritage to. I started off with xbreds myself and progressed or evolved to registered dogs and don't plan to regress to 50 yrs back. To each his own and I have no intention of criticizing anyone for whatever they like to hunt.

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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 17437

Mr Richards, if you knew anything about breeding, you would know that every dog has a t gene. T is short for tail. If the t gene becomes defective or mutates then you get a pup with a short tail or no tail. It is very very rare but it can happen to any pup in any litter and has nothing to do with their ancestors. Now that is your breeding/genetics lesson for today.

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shadinc
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 2098

Is the Xbred a one generation thing? If I breed and Xbred Walker/black and tan to an Xbred blue tick /redbone will those pups be registered Xbred?

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Dave Richards
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 3289

Mr. Yadkinriver/ Mr. Lambert

First, I agree with most of your post, I would expect any breeder to be proud of what they are breeding and hunting. No, my dog is a registered Walker, but 2 of the 5 best dogs myself and my hunting partner have ever owned were cross bred dogs. I just believe that an xbreed cross can and does offer us a better choice at times, much like those who were responsible for all of our breed thought at the time. Nothing wrong with crossing 2 top coonhound of different breeds trying to get some more top hounds. Requiring dogs to be registered in order to hunt the competition hunts resulted in most of us going to all registered dogs. Breeders trying to sell pups had no other choice and cross breeding only happened for certain people for their personal use. Purebred became the norm and cross breeding was done on a limited basis, did we miss some good crosses that would have bettered our dogs? I believe we did, as coondog to coondog is how we got to where we are. Now, that a breeder is not confined to a certain breed just to register and sell their pups, we are starting to see some good cross breeding or xbreed dogs. Mr. Lambert, the gene for short tail IS NOT present in all dogs, I know just a little about genetics, anyone really interest in the subject should do their own research. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

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yadkintar
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 9345

Just somthing to ponder.

In a lot of all grand pedigrees they used the same dog multiple times to get it and never got one equal to him !! But when out crossed on a completely different line it created a super dog.



Happened more often then not.


Tar

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Dave Richards
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 3289

Yadkinriver

My first outstanding dog was a xbreed dog, he had to be hunted in the hunts as a grade dog, that was in the day when we had grade and registered casts. Buck was his name and he won more hunts and trophies than some can count. Most hunts he won high scoring dog of the hunt as well as the grade part. Many times we would pleasure hunt somewhere after the night hunt was over and Buck would put on a coon treeing clinic. If I could have registered him then, I could have hunted in the big hunts, not just local club hunts with grade dog casts. Now, you can see a little glimpse of why I am so passionate about the Xbred program. While, my competition days are drawing to a close I want some others to have the opportunity with their xbreed dog that I never got with mine. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

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novicane65
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2013
Location: Nichols Ny
Posts: 1188

Re: Yadkinriver

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Richards
My first outstanding dog was a xbreed dog, he had to be hunted in the hunts as a grade dog, that was in the day when we had grade and registered casts. Buck was his name and he won more hunts and trophies than some can count. Most hunts he won high scoring dog of the hunt as well as the grade part. Many times we would pleasure hunt somewhere after the night hunt was over and Buck would put on a coon treeing clinic. If I could have registered him then, I could have hunted in the big hunts, not just local club hunts with grade dog casts. Now, you can see a little glimpse of why I am so passionate about the Xbred program. While, my competition days are drawing to a close I want some others to have the opportunity with their xbreed dog that I never got with mine. Dave



which is why I've stated several times over the past few years I don't care what color the dog is, if it can tree a coon the way I want it to in any company and any condition. I don't care if the dog is green, orange or purple, or if it has poke - a - dots or stripes. But if I'm leading that dog for more than a few months you better believe it's going to tree coons.

And on another note........ The young female I bought doesn't have UKC papers and a bunch of people wouldn't have bought her strictly on that reason. Now I can register her, when before I couldn't. And no she isn't a cross bred dog.

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PKC CH Wax's Late Night Boom
And
Partners on a few common trashy young dogs

Gone but not forgotten

GrNtCh, PKC Ch Hillbilly Bildo
Pr Broken Oaks Wild Blue Gypsy

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Dave Richards
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 3289

Eric

You young guys are the reason I am so passionate about the xbreed program. Men that want a top dog and won't hesitate to cross breed to get it. Performance over a breed standard, breeding a coondog to a coondog mentality. The old guns that are stuck on certain rules and an ideology of a certain breed being purebred and SHOULD not be tainted with outside blood are blind as to how their breed got to this point. I am so glad to see men with top coon dogs breeding them to top coon dogs regardless of breed. The all grand pedigree has not worked as everyone thought it would, other than sell pups and that's starting to fizzle out in my opinion. Many thanks to UKC for implementing the cross breed or xbreed program. Thanks to you Eric and some of the others with top coonhounds for making these crosses. I hope to see you guys in the Winners Circle. Dave

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micooner
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2006
Location: milan,mi
Posts: 1228

Re: Mixed

quote:
Originally posted by AndyMiller
Shetler Sonny Boy
Was a mixed breed
And thatís where the finely river
Dogs started

your right and every once in a while a mousy grey, wire haired pup would find it's way in a litter. Lol

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Dave Richards
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 3289

Shelter Sonny Boy

The name says it all, where would the Walker breed be if we did not have dogs like him in the bloodline? I bet the breeder was not thinking of PR in front of the pedigree. People in the know have known that certain crosses were made to better the breed and they did. When the product is good enough to win s world championship, it worked. Maybe the PR in the papers was incorrect, but the dog was the real deal. Maybe the right thing to do would be to open the registration to worthy dogs of mixed breed, just like the old days. If it was good enough then, it should be good enough now. If a mixed breed can beat your PR bred all grand dogs, you obviously need something added to the mix. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

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ov_blues
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2007
Location: Pomeroy, Ohio
Posts: 2591

quote:
Originally posted by shadinc
Is the Xbred a one generation thing? If I breed and Xbred Walker/black and tan to an Xbred blue tick /redbone will those pups be registered Xbred?


Yes the pups can be registered Xbred

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John Smith
Ohio Valley Bluetick Kennel

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shadinc
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 2098

So in a few years a fellow gets a new dog and you ask him how it's bred. "Well, his sir is 1/4 blue tick, 1/8 redbone, 1/8 Walker, 1/8 Plott, 1/8 English, 1/8black and tan, and 1/8 leopard. His dam is 1/4 Plott, 1/8 redbone, 1/8 black and tan, 1/8 English, 1/8 Walker, 1/8 leopard, and 1/8 blue tick". Is this really where we want to go?

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Dave Richards
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 3289

Donald

Better still in a few years and a guy has an exceptional coon dog, one that makes everyone drool, has all the tools, track, tree mouth and brains. What is more important, pedigree or performance as a coondog? Your example would be kind of extreme, but could exist, why would it matter. Should one not be more concerned with performance than pedigree. If you have a line of dogs that are producing coon dogs that measure up, then by all means stay true to that line. Cross breeding is for the ones not satisfied with what they have or are looking to improve certain traits, it is not for everyone. Maybe one day when someone asks what's your dogs pedigree, you can just say all coondog and mean it. I have yet to see a set of papers tree a coon, if pedigree really meant something coon dogs would be plentiful and they are not. Dave

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JAH
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2016
Location:
Posts: 88

Technically all breeds could be considered crossbred mutts.Since most if not all had some crosses back in the day when the breeds was being bred to get where they are today.But at the same time technically the purebreds are purebred now.With all that said if you want to own and hunt a mutt which is all a cross breed is have at it.You are the one feeding it not anyone else.Myself if its not a purebred and registered I won't own it nor will it be in my yard or dog box.We all have choices so go with what you choose and don't be talking crap like some of you are about it.I think UKC was wrong for registering them but its their choice.Its all about the money to them anyhow.

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shadinc
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 2098

Dave

I ride mules. I think you should breed some of your show mares to a jack and get you some real riding stock.

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Dave Richards
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 3289

Donald

Lol. All jokes aside, I have a friend who has a gaited mule, a good one. He actually showed his mule against gaited horses and won his class. I like gaited mules for riding, but they don't have the beauty and style I am looking for like horses. Now for some purposes you just could not do better than a mule. I look at mine more than ride these days, my wife is the one that shows the horses. I get a hankering every now and then, saddle one up and ride, it's still fun. If I were to cross a horse with a jack, I would use a walking horse mare, that cross usually produces a gaited offspring, a racking 4 beat gait, smooth as silk. Dave

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