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honalieh
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 1800

1st strike-1st tree dog

After years of hunting you finally have that awesome dog that will strike ahead of and tree ahead of anything it's cut loose with.

So, knowing you have a premium dog, you take it to a hunt. True to form, your dog strikes 1st and trees 1st (outstanding). The other guys are hunting silent dogs. Being as they can't keep up, they split away and also tree, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th (but split).

So, by having a 1st tree dog, you have an advantage, right? Well, no, We allow 2nd, 3rd, and 4th tree dogs just as many points as 1st tree dogs, if they split!

So, the 1st tree dog gets screwed on 1st tree points, because the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th tree dogs can get just as many points (by splitting because they can't keep up).

You still have your 1st strike points, right? But the three guys (majority of cast) hunting silent dogs, have determined that your dog was babbling (it opened on track when theirs didn't). You are scratched for babbling (all open dogs are babblers in comparison to silent dogs).

Is this where we really want to go? Penalize the best, because we can't compete with them straight up?

I've seen this in beagles. No rabbit hunter is going to hunt field trial beagles. Are we going to do this with coonhunting?

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Team Mafia 2
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Registered: Feb 2018
Location:
Posts: 97

These post are so ignorant If you look back in time and read the old Play by plays from the big events a Loner has and always will be dominant. If Iím hunting a 1st and 1st type dog I donít care what everything else does. If you truly believe that these rule changes are going to create a line of silent mouth winners your dead wrong. Look at the other Kennel clubs that donít have a silent mouth rule and look at what wins the big hunts. Itís the dogs that knock a hole in the dark and get coons treed regardless as to what everything else does around them. You Absolutely wonít see a change in the style of dog that wins the BIG EVENTS. Other than maybe they wonít be able to slip in behind you for 75 at the end of the tree time now. In your scenario you have you will be able to cut that coon treer back loose and get another one treed while going to those dogs so it wouldnít matter if they minused you for babbling or not your still going to win. I highly doubt you will see any unnecessary minuses handed out though at least no more than you already do. These new rules will allow the BEST COON DOG to win more often than not. I hate to get covered and I hate for my dog to cover so if I get beat by a dog treeing there own coon youíll see me loose with a smile on my face. All a pack dog is is a dog that doesnít have the sense to get away and tree itís own coon or itís not a good enough track dog to do it alone. If they donít strike that track at the same time they have no business treeing second. It wouldnít hurt my feelings to see the whole tree time cut down to 30 seconds that would weed out the back packers and sorry track dogs all together.

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Sgraves
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Registered: Dec 2017
Location:
Posts: 232

The whining might as well stop. You people are thinking the worst before you even try it . Itís plain an simple to see that the rule changes doesnít fit the style dog that you people are used to. You can teach an old dog new tricks. Itís the owner thatís set in his ways . If you canít hang, stay on porch an well you know the rest.

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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 17409

Donnie you are right, we don't know how many will just choose to stay on the porch. We will have to wait and see now. But when we do, it will be too late.

Dalton, if those dogs are winning the big events already, why did we need the rule changes? It sure does sound like you aren't satisfied with beating those type of dogs, you want to annihilate them and wipe them off the face of the earth because you simply don't like their style. And PKC has never assigned a dog points just so that they could minus them. Talk about overkill, we now will not only have a countdown but in addition tree will close after 3 minutes. And then to annihilate them we will assign more points and then minus those points. That is like knocking someone down, stomping on them and then shooting them.

Last edited by Richard Lambert on 09-08-2019 at 02:52 PM

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johnny reb
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2004
Location: tennessee
Posts: 693

Re: 1st strike-1st tree dog

quote:
Originally posted by honalieh
After years of hunting you finally have that awesome dog that will strike ahead of and tree ahead of anything it's cut loose with.

So, knowing you have a premium dog, you take it to a hunt. True to form, your dog strikes 1st and trees 1st (outstanding). The other guys are hunting silent dogs. Being as they can't keep up, they split away and also tree, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th (but split).

So, by having a 1st tree dog, you have an advantage, right? Well, no, We allow 2nd, 3rd, and 4th tree dogs just as many points as 1st tree dogs, if they split!

So, the 1st tree dog gets screwed on 1st tree points, because the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th tree dogs can get just as many points (by splitting because they can't keep up).

You still have your 1st strike points, right? But the three guys (majority of cast) hunting silent dogs, have determined that your dog was babbling (it opened on track when theirs didn't). You are scratched for babbling (all open dogs are babblers in comparison to silent dogs).

Is this where we really want to go? Penalize the best, because we can't compete with them straight up?

I've seen this in beagles. No rabbit hunter is going to hunt field trial beagles. Are we going to do this with coonhunting?




I understand everyone has there own thoughts and opinions. But for the life of me I canít get my head around dogs that are split are 2nd,3rd,4th tree dog. The idea is to tree coon and to tree as many as possible in the time allotted. I like to have good dog work and dogs coming into a treed dog after 3 min d@ng sure doesnít need to be there.

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Old Post 09-08-2019 04:40 PM
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Sgraves
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2017
Location:
Posts: 232

I would be satisfied with dog getting 25 minus instead of next available tree points. I totally believe if a dog comes in after tree is closed it quit what it was doing an came in to back. Have not heard one time from the guys that against all this admit that. It is flat out gaining undeserved points. If your dog is that slow on track I would be embarrassed to enter it in a hunt. Yes I pleasure hunt what I competition hunt. You are failing to realize that this is Competition.I donít run the roads , have not a lot of money to do it for that matter. But I be **** if am gonna whine if I donít have the dog power to compete .

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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 17409

Is the goal to tree the most coons or do the best job of treeing coons? If the goal is simply to tree the most coons, why do we have minus points at all?
Who should win a.cast; Dog A that trees 3 coons and 2 slick trees or Dog B that trees 2 coons and 1 slick tree? Or Dog C that trees 1 coon and backs Dog A on 1 coon and Dog B on 1 coon but makes 0 slick trees?
Which is the "best" dog?
Why don't we just turn 4 dogs loose and after one trees we lead him off and turn him loose and go to the next one and so on. Then after 2 hrs, the dog that treed the most coons wins. All that a handler would have to do was tree his dog and find his coon and all a judge would have to do is count coons.

Last edited by Richard Lambert on 09-08-2019 at 05:16 PM

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Josh Michaelis
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2004
Location: North MO
Posts: 2047

Good grief.


Im gonna go out on a limb and say that none of yall complaining about the new rules have a dog that is going to be 1st and 1st on anything other than a bowl of kibbles and bits anyways. So stop it.

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Josh Michaelis
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Registered: Jan 2004
Location: North MO
Posts: 2047

And if you have to make up fake one in a million scenarios in your head as to how someone might be able to cheat you.........go home after the bench show, because you do not have the temperament to be in a cast.

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G.W. Harring
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2016
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 31

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Why don't we just turn 4 dogs loose and after one trees we lead him off and turn him loose and go to the next one and so on. Then after 2 hrs, the dog that treed the most coons wins. All that a handler would have to do was tree his dog and find his coon and all a judge would have to do is count coons.


Mr Lambert, you just came up with the perfect hunt!
Just TREE THE MOST COON....it's that simple. You are a genius!!
I'm assuming you don't give "bark" points and the only thing that counts is 1st tree with a coon. Sounds like you're getting back to how the comp hunts all started. Coondog against coondog and let the best coondog win. No twisting the rules. No advantage to a barker or a me too dog.
The best part is....."Then after 2 hrs, the dog that treed the most coons wins."

When, where and what's the entry fee??

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yadkintar
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 9335

quote:
Originally posted by G.W. Harring
Mr Lambert, you just came up with the perfect hunt!
Just TREE THE MOST COON....it's that simple. You are a genius!!
I'm assuming you don't give "bark" points and the only thing that counts is 1st tree with a coon. Sounds like you're getting back to how the comp hunts all started. Coondog against coondog and let the best coondog win. No twisting the rules. No advantage to a barker or a me too dog.
The best part is....."Then after 2 hrs, the dog that treed the most coons wins."

When, where and what's the entry fee??




Coons scored with a 22 where do I pay entry fee.


Tar

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Dave Richards
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Tar

Surely, Mr. Lambert would go for that, even in Where the Red Fern Grows they had to get the coon for it to count. Scoring with a 22 would be the ideal way, but that will never happen on a large scale. This could only happen on a small scale in an area with no limit and men with the dog power to back up their entry fee. I always wanted to hunt in a hunt like that..............never had the opportunity. Dave

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nextcoonhunters
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2015
Location: mo
Posts: 315

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Coons scored with a 22 where do I pay entry fee.


Tar



Better yet use the 22 to scratch the dogs. First offense of any kind slap em around next offense beat the hair off em 3rd offense remove their collar. No withdrawing to avoid it. Then what dogs are left at the end should be just what you guys want. Using the new rules how many of you all want to sign up? I'll bring the 22.

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Rocketman55
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Registered: Aug 2008
Location: SE Ohio, Glouster
Posts: 2179

New hunt rules-Just tree the most coons.

You know I had my first experience of judging and guiding a cur hunt at our recent youth hunt. And these cur folks were explaining how their rules work. You see cur dogs are not responsible for strike points. The only time they can be scored is when they get treed. I see now with these new UKC proposals, are very similar to what the cur folks are already hunting under. The only exception is that currently hounds are still receive strike points and are still responsible for them, even if strike points will now be administered at the discretion of 50% of the cast but I have read many proposals asking to have all strike points eliminated, or make them all the same. The hound organization that I once so dearly appreciated has now deserted my philosophy of what traits are required to separate hounds from curs. Now they are nearly one in the same, and when you finally get around to eliminating the strike points, there will be NO difference in the traits of a hound vs a Cur.

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yadkintar
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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 9335

quote:
Originally posted by nextcoonhunters
Better yet use the 22 to scratch the dogs. First offense of any kind slap em around next offense beat the hair off em 3rd offense remove their collar. No withdrawing to avoid it. Then what dogs are left at the end should be just what you guys want. Using the new rules how many of you all want to sign up? I'll bring the 22.




I made 3 drops last night and never looked at eyes not me boy lol.


Tar

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novicane65
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The only thing I can do is laugh at these ridiculous comments. The ones that have the issues with the new rules are the ones packing around barkers that also cover all night. And no I don't believe a dog should be culled because it will back. I think they have a purpose but competition hunting ain't 1. No a dog that trees its own coon should still get the same points if he's split treed. If you think otherwise you need to rethink it again.

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LoggyBayouBlues
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Registered: Jul 2009
Location: Haughton, Louisiana
Posts: 85

quote:
Originally posted by Sgraves
I would be satisfied with dog getting 25 minus instead of next available tree points. I totally believe if a dog comes in after tree is closed it quit what it was doing an came in to back. Have not heard one time from the guys that against all this admit that. It is flat out gaining undeserved points. If your dog is that slow on track I would be embarrassed to enter it in a hunt. Yes I pleasure hunt what I competition hunt. You are failing to realize that this is Competition.I donít run the roads , have not a lot of money to do it for that matter. But I be **** if am gonna whine if I donít have the dog power to compete .

I wish they had a closed track after 3 minute's, as I have seen real coondog's who have first strike, and work an old feed track up, just to have a me too dog join in after the track get's better. JMO

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Ghost14
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2014
Location:
Posts: 129

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Is the goal to tree the most coons or do the best job of treeing coons? If the goal is simply to tree the most coons, why do we have minus points at all?
Who should win a.cast; Dog A that trees 3 coons and 2 slick trees or Dog B that trees 2 coons and 1 slick tree? Or Dog C that trees 1 coon and backs Dog A on 1 coon and Dog B on 1 coon but makes 0 slick trees?
Which is the "best" dog?
Why don't we just turn 4 dogs loose and after one trees we lead him off and turn him loose and go to the next one and so on. Then after 2 hrs, the dog that treed the most coons wins. All that a handler would have to do was tree his dog and find his coon and all a judge would have to do is count coons.



Hahahaha. You know you ainít gonna get these boys to have a coon treeing contest. Hunts today are glorified beauty contests! Has nothing to do with treeing coons and everything to do with whatever style hound each KC has glorified in their respective group. UKC has just mad rule changes to make their winners more like the other winners because for whatever reason, thatís what people wanted and thatís better for business. Competition hunts have not been a coon treeing contest in a long time. Since about the second men became involved! It immediately became a race to see who could twist, spin, work, get changed, modify, lengthen, shorten, and make up rules that gave their desired style or type of dog the benefit or advantage to win. Itís why competition coon hunters and fishermen are the minority in their own sports. Itís why the honest men I know that worked their way into being presidents of their coon clubs and fishing clubs also will have nothing to do with either anymore. To much politics and not enough coons treed. Another year and another rule change and another argument because one group is in control and has the say and another group wants to be in charge and have the power. All the while, rules keep changing and people are quitting the hunts and hunting all together. I see no change whatsoever, competition coon hunts will be a thing of the past in short order if you donít start bringing back the group that founded you in the first place. Hide hunters started you and will be who saves you if it happens. KCís keep trying to cater to millinials, or younger hunters. Their isnít enough young coonhunters to make up a cast in 3 counties here. I know 25 men I could call tonight and they would be at a coon treeing contest this weekend if the rules were tree coons and win. Canít be cheated that way or say you were cheated and a man can talk all he wants to about how your dog is a backpacker or junk or canít trail or is silent or a babbler. But them two eyes are what makes a coon dog regardless of how he gets under them or how many barks he makes a minute! The farther we get from that the farther we get from coon dogs. Ask the Rabbit hunters and better yet, a bird hunter that hunt wild birds on foot not pen birds off a horse or buggy! Or a close friend thatís won every type squirrel championship that I know of. He has a competition squirrel dog and a squirrel dog he hunts when heís trying to tree a bunch for people to actually see and shoot without covering 10 miles.

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G.W. Harring
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2016
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 31

quote:
Originally posted by Ghost14
Hahahaha. You know you ainít gonna get these boys to have a coon treeing contest. Hunts today are glorified beauty contests! Has nothing to do with treeing coons and everything to do with whatever style hound each KC has glorified in their respective group. UKC has just mad rule changes to make their winners more like the other winners because for whatever reason, thatís what people wanted and thatís better for business. Competition hunts have not been a coon treeing contest in a long time. Since about the second men became involved! It immediately became a race to see who could twist, spin, work, get changed, modify, lengthen, shorten, and make up rules that gave their desired style or type of dog the benefit or advantage to win. Itís why competition coon hunters and fishermen are the minority in their own sports. Itís why the honest men I know that worked their way into being presidents of their coon clubs and fishing clubs also will have nothing to do with either anymore. To much politics and not enough coons treed. Another year and another rule change and another argument because one group is in control and has the say and another group wants to be in charge and have the power. All the while, rules keep changing and people are quitting the hunts and hunting all together. I see no change whatsoever, competition coon hunts will be a thing of the past in short order if you donít start bringing back the group that founded you in the first place. Hide hunters started you and will be who saves you if it happens. KCís keep trying to cater to millinials, or younger hunters. Their isnít enough young coonhunters to make up a cast in 3 counties here. I know 25 men I could call tonight and they would be at a coon treeing contest this weekend if the rules were tree coons and win. Canít be cheated that way or say you were cheated and a man can talk all he wants to about how your dog is a backpacker or junk or canít trail or is silent or a babbler. But them two eyes are what makes a coon dog regardless of how he gets under them or how many barks he makes a minute! The farther we get from that the farther we get from coon dogs. Ask the Rabbit hunters and better yet, a bird hunter that hunt wild birds on foot not pen birds off a horse or buggy! Or a close friend thatís won every type squirrel championship that I know of. He has a competition squirrel dog and a squirrel dog he hunts when heís trying to tree a bunch for people to actually see and shoot without covering 10 miles.


That right there says it ALL....and I think I just heard the mic drop!!

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Redneck Mafia
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Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 4136

Tell me which rule change hurts the dog doing the work and treeing real live raccoons. I looked down the list and couldn't for the life of me figure out one that will negatively affect a coondog.
I see rules that may affect the babblers and late covering dogs, and those which rely upon the talents of others to accumulate points.. I see rules changes that will make it more difficult to scratch for innocent mistakes and some others gone altogether.
I always thought that the dominate dog of the cast that treed the most coons first in the allotted amount of time should be the winner and have more points than the others. I guess others have a differing opinion of what a coondog is and who should win.
Correct me if I'm wrong but even back in the day the coveted dog was the one that was the leader of the pack. The dog that had an uncanny ability to run a track and tree coons first. No leash lock and a countdown gives the power back to these dogs taking it from man made deep loner, the bark every step dog and from the dog that A. lacks tracking ability and speed and therefore gets beat to trees or B. complete reliance upon other dogs that they cover for the nothing other than the reason of covering another dog that barks treed and have been collecting undeserved points.

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Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 17409

That is true, everyone will just have to get 2 dogs, a gun dog and a competition dog. They could comp hunt a walker and pleasure hunt a Redbone. They would have their ugly cur looking walker tied up out front and their houndy Redbone hid out back.

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G.W. Harring
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2016
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 31

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
That is true, everyone will just have to get 2 dogs, a gun dog and a competition dog. They could comp hunt a walker and pleasure hunt a Redbone. They would have their ugly cur looking walker tied up out front and their houndy Redbone hid out back.


LOL, looks is last on the list in a coon hunt. Show me them coon eyes, do it fast and do it regardless of what the other dogs are doing.

Mr. Richard, you just keep bench show'n them purdy Red dogs and you'll be a lot happier.

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Old Post 09-09-2019 11:16 PM
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Clif Owen
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2012
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 321

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
That is true, everyone will just have to get 2 dogs, a gun dog and a competition dog. They could comp hunt a walker and pleasure hunt a Redbone. They would have their ugly cur looking walker tied up out front and their houndy Redbone hid out back.


The red dog probably needs to stay hid. LOL!

Honestly, I have hunted with 9 or 10. Most were Nite Ch.'s and I have yet to see one tree a coon. The closest one has ever come was when one of James Dorman's came into a tree with a coon in it after we got there. I know that evidently a bunch have made top coonhounds but I've never had the chance to hunt with one. I guess I should have gone with that x-breed one Lee Weatherford sold to Russ Bellar.

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Old Post 09-09-2019 11:23 PM
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Redneck Mafia
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 4136

What is wrong with attempting to breed for the ability to actually RUN a track and tree with accuracy?

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Old Post 09-09-2019 11:28 PM
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Sgraves
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2017
Location:
Posts: 232

You know what. No matter who whines or who gets their way. The ones who really loves this sport will find a way to compete. Even though in the past they didnít agree with the rules , they found the means to do so . Itís competition if you donít have what it takes now you find a way to get it or you sit at home. A post said hide hunters made this game we play. I will go with that. But I bet if that hide hunter didnít have the means of beating his buddies he found the way. You donít see a man that races horses bring a plow horse to a race do you.Its just that simple. Rules we have before us are simple . If you work hard good things will come your way.

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