Registered: May 2009
Location: CENTRAL TEXAS
Posts: 146

Didn't their standard allow for black saddles a while back? I remember reading that Rebone breeders took a different tack with redbone and bred for color to remove the saddle. Odds are this is a throwback to the previous standard.

If they keep the saddle, and that's something you don't want to breed back into the gene pool you could neuter them. I'd bet good money you could give em to some poor kid who wants a puppy who couldn't afford to buy one.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Comer, Georgia
Posts: 4724

quote:

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Originally posted by Janet Ford
How many of you have seen them?
How common do you think they are?
Do they seem to creep up in certain lines or does anyone here have genetic knowledge to share how it happens? As in both parents need to be carrier, etc.
Throw back to... ?

And, yes, I'm asking because I now got my first! and second... and third... UGH! Yes, I'm disappointed and not sure how to handle this litter but I'm not going to hide them, either. I'd like to learn more.

And they are from (DNA'd) bloodlines that can't be beat and yes, I'm 1,000,000% certain there was nobody peeking over my fence that shouldn't have been. LOL We kennel everyone here and we walk them on leads for supervised breedings.

I understand it happens and that many/most breeders knock them in the heads when they are born. I'm willing to take the hit and do right by these gorgeous babies. It's by my choice that they found their way into the world so they are my responsibility to care for.

They are less than 12 hours old and the eldest has this odd red tint. A red and tan? LOL The others are still wet. Will be curious to see what the colors look like in a few days.

I'm willing to share pedigrees, photos and even videos for the sake of an educational discussion but will not if the conversation becomes flames. Educate me and I'll add to the melting pot of knowledge/experience.

As a writer, I'd like to really research this and write up an article on it so VERY appreciative for informed replies for that reason as well.

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Registered: Jul 2007
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The ones i grew up around were blakesly turpins an just some ol no names

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Registered: Aug 2009
Location: georgetown, sc
Posts: 22

quote:

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Originally posted by ST_CRK_KENNELS
Don't know about any pure bred dogs, but when I started out a man that lived down the road from me gave me two pups. They were half Red Bone and Half Walker. There were seven pups. 1 colored identical to a B&T, 3 colored like Red Bones and 3 Colored like Walkers.

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THE WORLD IS ROUND.
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Registered: Feb 2006
Location: BRIGHTON, TENNESSEE 30 miles north of Memphis
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quote:

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Originally posted by gummydadummy

AS FOR TWO REDBONES PRODUCING A BLACK&TAN IT WAS BILLY THE KID BREEDING. FURTHER BACK WAS MOSTLY TIMBER CHOPPER.

SHHHH ... IT HAPPENS ! CULL THEM OR SELL THEM WITH NO PAPERS.


THERE'S NO TELLING WHAT WAS DONE WAY BACK BEFORE OUR TIME AND BEFORE DNA TESTING.

I HOPE YOU LIKE YOUR DOG AS MUCH AS I LIKE MINE.

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Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 114

This dog I had would throw A couple of black one's every now and then.

******NT.CH. Timber Cannon

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Registered: Aug 2009
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I MADE A HALF-BROTHER TO HALF-SISTER CROSS. THEN BRED A MALE AND FEMALE FROM THIS CROSS (BROTHERXSISTER). THEN TOOK A FEMALE FROM THAT CROSS BACK TO HER DADDY (FATHERXDAUGHTER). NONE OF THIS INTENSIVE INBREEDING PRODUCED ANY BLACK&TAN COLORED PUPS. THE FEMALE THAT WAS BRED TO HER DADDY WAS CROSSED ON A DIRECT SON OF BILLY THE KID AND PRODUCED A COUPLE OF BLACK&TAN COLORED PUPS. SINCE THEN I NOT ONLY HAVE SEEN BLACK&TAN COLORED PUPS BUT ALSO PUPS WITH WHITE BLAZES DOWN THEIR HEAD. MAYBE TOO MUCH INBREEDING. LOL. THESE DAYS I LEAVE THE BREEDING TO THE EXPERTS. I JUST HUNT 'EM.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Troy Iowa
Posts: 2159

quote:

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Originally posted by s/s

LMBO !!!!!! " CHILL OUT !! THEY WILL LIGHTEN UP WHEN THEY DRY!!" LOL !! LOL !!
I remember these words so clearly !!


I am sorry Tim, I don't mean any harm in laughing about part of your comment. Hehe !! What you said reminded me so much of what my husband was telling me as he laid in bed while I ranted about B&T puppies being born from one of our Redbones...

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Registered: Feb 2006
Location: BRIGHTON, TENNESSEE 30 miles north of Memphis
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TIM...

LOL....Yeah, what were you thinking !! LOL

Hey, I am still waiting for those little rascals to turn RED !! Everytime I see the person that has one of these, I ask them if she turn RED yet !! LOL.. That, "Chill out !! t They will turn RED when they dry" comment has always been a joke around here. It was just so funny that you said almost the same words Sam did that night these were being born...LOL

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Registered: Aug 2009
Location: MIDDLE OF NO WHERE WV
Posts: 1732

i booked a pup born 3 weeks ago ukc reg both dam and sire are red . Had 12 pups 10 red 2 greyish like silver. 1 male and 1 female thats the one i got . How that color happen? weimeramer! lol seriously anyone seen this ?

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: In the boonies of Michigan
Posts: 673

Thanks for the pedigree links, Sabrina. I'll look when I'm rested. Still bushed from these pups. We stay in our whelping room 24/7 for the first 1-2 wks of their lives. John and I take shifts. Prevents accidentally stepping on, laying on, over anxious umbilical cord action, etc. Got my computer and a nice comfy recliner out here but don't get much sleep taking shifts like this so I don't know that I could make sense of the pedigrees just yet. LOL

Silver? Wow. Got a photo?

I believe one of these three will be the chocolate. She is DEFINITELY different. She is marked black/tan but has such a red tint to her. She looks different today than yesterday. Still dark enough I can't convince my 20 yr old son that she looks different from the others and it isn't showing on the videos I keep trying to take but give it time. I'm really intrigued by all of this. Not worried about getting them homes. Got a lot of interest already. Think I'll hold onto this 'chocolate' or whatever she is for awhile, though. I'll be requesting all of them get spayed/neutered.

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: In the boonies of Michigan
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Just a quick update...

The one female b/t pup really, really looks reddish so suspecting chocolate. The male is quickly following suit.
We've decided to keep that female so we can follow her through adulthood and see what happens. In another couple of days, I'll take another pic/video and maybe it will show up for you all to see. She's really lovely!

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Registered: Feb 2008
Location: tennesse
Posts: 84

fire ball 2 was half black&tan ??

guys told me at A O they talked about it one year??
this is hear say.i dont know for sure.

anyone else know??

Last edited by HenryW on 08-14-2009 at 02:57 PM

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: In the boonies of Michigan
Posts: 673

btt

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Registered: Feb 2006
Location: BRIGHTON, TENNESSEE 30 miles north of Memphis
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I am sure you have seen it already, but there is another thread on the Redbone forum that is about the gray & cream colors that pop up in a Redbone litter. Shewww ! Those grays are more shocking than the B&T's ...LOL...It's all very interesting to me to say the least.....

Sabrina Smith

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: In the boonies of Michigan
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Sabrina,
I heard there was a post in the redbone section with photos of the silver one. I can't find it. Anyone have a link? I want to see!

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Location: BRIGHTON, TENNESSEE 30 miles north of Memphis
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http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthrea...threadid=293277

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: In the boonies of Michigan
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Thanks, Sabrina. That's what I wanted to see. Wild!

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Location: michigan
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Janet,
the first litter that we had from dutch there was a silver pup, like a weimarar, however as he kept growing his color turned a rea lly nice deep red color. When Jeanie Smith looked at him she said not to worry, his color would change and it did.
We had a man bring his female to breed to our old indiana jones dog, because her last litter were all black and tan. He was trying to figure out if it was coming from her or the male. Needless to say he bred her to our dog, however it apparently didn't take as she didn't have pups. Don't know if he ever tried again.

Dale and I have heard of it happening a couple of times, just haven't had it happen to us.

Good luck with those special pups!!
Laurie

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: In the boonies of Michigan
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Got a pic of him, Laurie?
How old was he before he turned red?
Two of our b/t colored redbones here look reddish when held in the light and moved about. They seem to get more and more reddish all the time. The other girl is as black as can be so far but they are only a week old.
Wonder how long I should wait until I can say for certain what their color is.

I'm keeping the reddish b/t female. I want to see this one out long term.

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Registered: Aug 2009
Location: Indiana
Posts: 6

I called my dad because I remembered him talking about his redbone that would throw black and tans. He said his never did turn all red. Not saying they couldn't. If the tips of the hair are black then they may very well turn red but with the black and tan marks of black body and the tan feet and tear drops etc., it may not happen.
Dads' knows of three generations the first threw three b&t the second and third threw 2 b&t each. so be prepared for more! It is genetic.
If all else fails find a young kid that is in your local coon club that wants to learn or is just getting started and doesn't have a dog, that pup will be his or her first love!

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Registered: Sep 2006
Location: North Mississippi
Posts: 2

There are two issue to consider here.
1. Red (or rust) can be a mutation of the Black & Tan color. The rust colored dobermans are a result of this mutation. There are strains of Black & Tans that carry a recessive for that and when crossed with another dog with a recessive for the mutation you get a rust (or red) colored Black & Tan. I bred and promoted Umphers Tennessee Rambler back in the sixties and was pretty successful with him. When crossed with Schenker's Smokey strain, we produced several outstanding dogs, but we also had a number of the "rust color" variety. I also had it pop up from some other strains. I usually tried to advise anyone coming to breed about the possibility, but a few times I forgot and had questions about the Redbone in my kennel.
2. A few times while I was producing Black & Tans for one reason or another we crossed with a Redbone. The results of this cross was always either a perfectly colored Black & Tan or a perfectly colored Redbone. I have had a litter with three Redbones and three Black and Tans. The difference is the tan trim. The Redbone cross had no punkin seeds or tan trim. The Black & Tan mutations always had the trim and many times had green eyes.
At first I gave away the mutations to the kids around the country until some got to making good dogs and I had to answer a lot of questions. I finally got to the point where I just destroyed them. If you took one of the cross breed Redbones and bred it back to a Redbone, most likely you would have all Redbone pups. But even for several generations a Black and Tan could pup uo.
I never did see a pup from either situation change color after birth.

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Registered: Dec 2006
Location: Springfield, Ga.
Posts: 4254

nope...no chilling out here, those are Black & Tan genes running around in there somewhere. If you are breeding for pure-breds, that is not it. I'd register them as crosses with PKC, at best. no way would they ever be sent to UKC for registering. Something just looks fishy there. Not saying you did it...it could have come from way way back as Jarvis said. Its sad..but it is true. i guess you know what obamas parents must have been thinking now...lol

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Registered: Feb 2006
Location: BRIGHTON, TENNESSEE 30 miles north of Memphis
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Well, you can count on one thing for sure...It is gonna keep on happening...And it's not just the Redbone Breed either...

See what happens...And I have to try and choose words very carefully because so many get so testy....But, these pups go on to be single registered in what ever breed they look most like at the time they are being registered...When my pups were born, the single reg. was still open for the B&T's. I was told to single reg. them as B&T's...YES, That is what I was told...Well, that to me was just wrong...They were only B&T's by color...Redbone by blood...Or at least my 7 generation Redbone pedigree said so. Just take a look right now, and as I said, it's not just Redbones, so lets don't get feathers ruffled...But, with these cross breedings going on right now...Do you not think that a big percentage of those will not go on to be single registered in which ever breed they look more like? There are two beautiful, well bred Rebone/Walker crosses right now on the Redbone forum. Every single puppy is Red with, no more white than any other Redbone cross will throw...I am sure some if not most will go on to be single registered and years down the line this same topic will be being discussed because of these crosses...This has been going on from the beginning in this breed and all breeds...It's just gonna happen....

FYI.....
It was voted on just last month to keep the single registry open for the Redbone breed....



I have heard and seen where so many ask...What is the 'PR' for in front of thier dogs name?....Well, when you don't see the 'PR', that is the break in where some, not all, but some of these wild colors are deriving from....Take a look and you will see it for yourself...These without the 'PR' were single registered hounds.


OK, I am done...Probably said too much all ready....Oh, well..
Just trying to say a few things that everyone is beating around the bush about...It's just no need to keep sweeping the history under the rug...Cause it's just like dust, it keeps coming back.

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Registered: Dec 2003
Location: East Texas
Posts: 3970

Everyone is getting blasted on this, so I guess I will too.
Ive got no problem with registering the Black and Tan ones, as Black and Tans. When they are bred to a Black and Tan, the pups will be Black and Tan. ITs a domanant color trait.
I have had a few Black and Tans, and I think that breed, needs some new blood added.

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