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Quoting Delmar from "Oh Bother, Where Art Thou"... "Ok, I'm with you fellas!"

All kidding aside, I've found my self wrestling with both sides of this argument! I've wondered if I'm seeing more than I should in a pup, because I've gotten too close to it. And I've also wondered if I've grown impatient, and setting expectations too high! The decision to cull a dog, is never easy as there's always a financial and emotional investment. And there's a similar situation with a breeding decision, as everyone always has their biases, but the truth is, rarely does someone keep the whole litter, which means their imposing their biased decision on someone else.

BUT... someone can choose to be more honest with themselves and make either a mental or literal list of what traits to look out for, and what milestones should be achieved by what point in a dog's life. Then give that pup 100% of your time and patience, and be disciplined enough to hold them accountable to the progress, you expected when you started the project.

I did this with my last two pups, and both of them found new homes. They were and are good dogs, and it was hard letting them go, but they weren't the caliber I was looking, with the limited time I have.

With regards to this debate... taking a side, does depend on what Ron asked for. What are the traits, that can or can't be fixed or brought out in a dog???

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ron Ashbaugh
Fisher:

Can you make a list of traits that you think the coonhound world views as "cullable" but you view as fixable? I think that may help understanding a little more of what you are talking about. I think most of us are talking about teaching a dog to hunt and tree raccoon and be good at it, which I don't believe you can teach any dog.

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quote:

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Originally posted by deschmidt27
Quoting Delmar from "Oh Bother, Where Art Thou"... "Ok, I'm with you fellas!"

All kidding aside, I've found my self wrestling with both sides of this argument! I've wondered if I'm seeing more than I should in a pup, because I've gotten too close to it. And I've also wondered if I've grown impatient, and setting expectations too high! The decision to cull a dog, is never easy as there's always a financial and emotional investment. And there's a similar situation with a breeding decision, as everyone always has their biases, but the truth is, rarely does someone keep the whole litter, which means their imposing their biased decision on someone else.

BUT... someone can choose to be more honest with themselves and make either a mental or literal list of what traits to look out for, and what milestones should be achieved by what point in a dog's life. Then give that pup 100% of your time and patience, and be disciplined enough to hold them accountable to the progress, you expected when you started the project.

I did this with my last two pups, and both of them found new homes. They were and are good dogs, and it was hard letting them go, but they weren't the caliber I was looking, with the limited time I have.

With regards to this debate... taking a side, does depend on what Ron asked for. What are the traits, that can or can't be fixed or brought out in a dog???

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I guess at the end of the day I am not that picky. My big reasons I will give up on a dog is in not particular order:

1. Stupid. This comes across to me in poor kennel habits, like barking, I have been good at fixing this, but have read about others that can't get it stopped. That is for sure a goodbye for me. I couldn't take a world class hound barking non-stop. Being super messy in the kennel I can't take much either.

2. Just lack of desire to go hunting alone. I will walk one a while but I am really against having to whip a dog to go hunting. If I have to switch it to get going, it just doesn't have the desire I am looking for. I like hunting dogs alone so going with another dog doesn't work for me.

3. Just not treeing anything. I can take some slicks, grinner, squirrels ect...but lordy get treed early and often for me to be excited.

4. Standing on your head and taking tracks you can't handle. Oh gracious it makes me nuts standing there listening to a dog beat a track to death. Personally I prefer slick trees to this. I never saw a dog learn to get better at this. Track running dogs usually were always good at it.

5. Any type of agression to me or other dogs. I just don't trust them no matter how broke. It only takes one time to get a poor repution or ruin a nice dog. I don't want dogs writing checks I can't cash.

6. Real crazy dogs I don't really like either, but this is usually an age thing I think. They usually settle a little.

Last but not least is just not taking advantage of opportunities. I really try to give all dogs a similar and fair shot. Some seem to just excell at every change they get, and some never seem to do anything right. After a while of never doing anything right I just grow tired of it. its exhausting and makes me hate putting my boots on. After that its pretty much over for me.

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With the particular line of dogs I was training, I was keeping and eye out for jealousy and overly timid. I'm pretty forgiving of everything else. I don't much care about style, as long as they get treed and have the meat, and with this line of dogs, there really weren't other negative traits to look out for!

So... knowing your line of dog, should skinny the list down considerably!

As far as timing:

- I expected the dog to go hunting and stay out there, by six months old.
- I expected them to start opening on track after 5-10 times to the woods, or sooner!
- I expected them to be treeing with the other dogs after 10-20 times to the woods, or sooner!
- Once they are treeing with other dogs, I immediately start hunting them by themselves, and should run and tree their own coon (with minimal coaxing or "walking") after 4-6 times to the woods.
- Once they have treed half a dozen of their own coon, they need to show me some willingness to be independent and split tree, when hunted with other dogs.

Now this is all due to the line and type of dogs I hunt. If some lines are "late bloomers" then wait for them to mature and start the timeline later, but you should still see reasonable progress, once you do start.

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David-you say you want them treeing with the other dogs after 10-20 times to the woods. If you hunt every day for three weeks it would be time to cull the pup. That don't seem like much time to me. In my area you will tree one coon a night if your lucky,two coon and you are doing real good.

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That's why one person's rules or milestones do not necessarily work for another. I know the dogs I'm hunting, and what to look out for and what won't likely be an issue. And where I hunt, we tree 4-6 coon a night. Even in the winter, on snow, we'll tree a coon or two per night. But again, that's with the types of dogs I hunt, and in the country I hunt in.

Being able to move a track is not a trait, I'm going to worry about, as it's a given. The other potential negative traits, are what I need to worry and "be honest" about.

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I also don't hunt every night... it's not scientific, but I give a dog time for things to "sink in". I usually hunt a pup around 3-4 nights a week.

I'm no expert, although I have had very good luck, getting dog's started. BUT, I have yet to find that "something special". So maybe it's genetics, or maybe it's my training methodologies.

Which is why, "I'm with you fellars"...

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I couldn't tell you at the cull dogs I have owned or seen over the years that ended up being Coon hounds after spending a little extra time on. I could tell you about the $$$$ I have made buying cull dogs and training them and reselling. I'll just say this I turned down $3500 cash for a dog I had 50 bucks in that was bought as a cull and kept him until the day he died. He was the best dog I have ever owned. Patience is key my friend......

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Ron very good list and I agree with all of your points as a general term. I have culled for numbers 1 and 2 already, not much ya can do with those. 3 and 4 can be case to case dependent and maturity related as well as time of year. But are obviously key tools for the dog to perform its job. I believe 5 is the most misunderstood and misdiagnosed fault imo.
I have never personally seen a truly aggressive hound, I have seen possessive,dominate,jealous,over excitement, around the tree, fear but this is much different then out right aggression. Out right Aggression would start long before there at the tree, imo. So everything from the actual diagnosis to the actual corrections such as hitting them with the e-collar which can only further triggering the dog.
I would argue most aggressive dogs have been man made by being put into to many negative circumstances and been imprinted with this behavior. I could be wrong but hounds are naturally very social. I guess it's possible if a breeder was selectively breeding for an aggressive tree dog for a couple generations to produce a consistently mean tree dog, but I just highly doubt that has been done by any one.
I think most of our mean dogs are due from a lack of understanding, and poor training techniques, combined with the breeding of more tree power. In another words our dogs have changed genetically faster then our communities general approach to training hounds. Obviously this would be line dependent which seems to be a reoccurring theme in our conversations, which makes me wonder if we underestimate the importance of knowing a line of dogs well.

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quote:

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Originally posted by westsidecooner
Good thing we give our kids a chance to "grow up" and "develop/mature"....................
And it takes alot longer!

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I would hope if you choose to have children you have a little more vested interest than if you choose to buy a dog.... In my opinion comparing humans in any way to dogs is completely ridiculous.

In the area of agressiveness, I have never had a hound that I would consider mean at all. I did have one that made me uncomfortable but he never really did anything that would be considered mean but I personally just didn't like his actions. He wasn't culled but was sold and did very well with the new owners. I guess what you are ok with just varies owner to owner.

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How would you guys look at human shyness?

I'm hunting a lot of stuff that goes back to skuna river Fred, I have been told he did throw quite a few one man dogs.
I have recommended some pups to guys out of a grntch female out of fred that I have a pup out of that fits your ideal pleasure dog. Cold nosed and deadly accurate. The female throws these traits, but she also is throwing one man dogs.

I was told this human shyness goes back to Fox hounds in the early 1900s breeders used to breed for it, so there dogs couldn't be stolen.

I have had 2 guys take my recommendations and pick up one of these pups and both culled them a few weeks later saying they were to shy. I have seen this have little to no effect on there hunting abilities in the woods. Clearly this is a genetic trait passed on from dog to dog, but as with many dogs every dog has there faults to me this is a fault I can live with because it doesn't effect there hunting at all. If anything it makes them more independent. I have pretty much ruled out breeding my pup someday just because of this one quality and it seems most hunters write them off pretty quickly. Am I missing something? Or why are guys so stand offish about this trait, especially considering if you put some time into the dog and they get know you they are extremely loyal.

Another thought I once heard someone say when referring to promoting a stud say he is reproducing coondawgs for dummies. Claiming that all you had to do was take the dogs to the woods and they would tree coon. Is it just me or does it seem that there are a lot of guys that are dummies and the only dogs they are capable of training are dogs that start quickly and easily regardless of how they finish out.

Finally going off of your post Ron, I think we could flip those points and come up with a pretty ideal list of traits that a breeder should be striving for. Giving that there is no perfect dog, I would rather have a line that has faults in some of the areas that I can have an influence in then be prone to faults that I can't fix. To me that is why drive,brains track and temperament are pretty important to me when I go pup shopping, drive probably being the most important.

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that's what i think of shy dogs. no way will i work with one. no way would i breed one.
no way no how. wont waste my time.
final answer!

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quote:

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Originally posted by pamjohnson
that's what i think of shy dogs. no way will i work with one. no way would i breed one.
no way no how. wont waste my time.
final answer!

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Last edited by Fisher13 on 08-23-2014 at 02:19 PM

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shy dogs are an uphill battle all the way. how shy? how shy makes a big difference. for me i even hate timmid. i like a proud dog. they just have better spirit and are generally easier to work with.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fisher13
I have had 2 guys take my recommendations and pick up one of these pups and both culled them a few weeks later saying they were to shy. I have seen this have little to no effect on there hunting abilities in the woods. Clearly this is a genetic trait passed on from dog to dog, but as with many dogs every dog has there faults to me this is a fault I can live with because it doesn't effect there hunting at all. If anything it makes them more independent. I have pretty much ruled out breeding my pup someday just because of this one quality and it seems most hunters write them off pretty quickly. Am I missing something? Or why are guys so stand offish about this trait, especially considering if you put some time into the dog and they get know you they are extremely loyal.

Another thought I once heard someone say when referring to promoting a stud say he is reproducing coondawgs for dummies. Claiming that all you had to do was take the dogs to the woods and they would tree coon. Is it just me or does it seem that there are a lot of guys that are dummies and the only dogs they are capable of training are dogs that start quickly and easily regardless of how they finish out.

Finally going off of your post Ron, I think we could flip those points and come up with a pretty ideal list of traits that a breeder should be striving for. Giving that there is no perfect dog, I would rather have a line that has faults in some of the areas that I can have an influence in then be prone to faults that I can't fix. To me that is why drive,brains track and temperament are pretty important to me when I go pup shopping, drive probably being the most important.

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Ron that makes a lot of sense. To be a little more case specific I will go into to more detail, so you guys can see my dilemma.

My pup and the mother both are more then capable of hunting in the hunts and competing, neither will follow another dog, but have no problems with a strange dog following them or treeing with them.
They are very outgoing around the house,don't mind strange dogs, recognize family and friends, love children. However if it's someone they haven't met, they will take a couple of minutes to warm up to the person or if they get a weird vibe they may never warm up to the person. They don't like being petted by strangers, but are fine standing there or being handled by another hunter.

Mine was a bit timid as a pup but completed all training in a timely fashion, and hunted out well as a pup, treed her first wild coon at 7 months. She struggled in social aspects such as taking her to a pet smart, but has never had any issues in the woods, just public settings like the vet office or a clinic or a trip to tractor supply.
She needed extra time with socializing had to put her around everyday people situations more so then other dogs, but imo needed a lot less time in the woods then other dogs.
I was told by another seasoned hunter that a litter mate to mine was the easiest most natural hound he had ever trained in his lifetime of hunting, even though my experience is much more limited I could say the same.

So how do you assess a line like this. Yes they struggle with timidness but can run a mile long track naturally at an early age, and tree accurately and only get better with time.
To me personally I'd rather have a negative trait like human shyness, where through just plain exposure to people the pup can grow out of it, and has very little effect on them in the woods, then have a fault like not enough track power. This is why I'm struggling with continuing with this line. My pup has outgrown most of her social issues as well as the mother, it seems that as puppies they just don't deal well with new and unfamiliar settings outside of the woods.
Which in my experience will cause many hunters to write them off immediately, which is ironic due to the fact they are very gamey and tree wild coon with virtually no training. However this causes a serious dilemma imo, because if I were to find a female I felt worthy of breeding out of this line but she continued to throw this human shyness trait, I feel most guys would right the pups off before they had a shot pretty much ****ing many of the pups to be traded around.

What do you guys think?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ron Ashbaugh

Working with a shy pup for me is like dating a woman you aren't really attracted to in the first place.....sure if you invest the time and get to no her better you may find out she has a bunch of qualities that make her your perfect match....but why do it? when there is one you like from the get go on the next street over that you don't have to talk yourself into liking?

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IMO your dogs shyness isn't extreme. To me it sounds like a very nice and useable dog that just takes a little time to be comfortable in new surroundings. If the dog has a bunch of other qualities you like and enjoy and it sounds like it does, then the good outweigh this minor personality quirk. As you said there are no perfect dogs and I also would take a quirk like this over a dog that has a a big performance flaw in the timber. In fact I would feel lucky to have a dog such as yours.

Funny we are talking about this since I have a very very similar case here right now. A year old, bought at 6 months and was PATHETIC shy. Has come out of its shell with me over the last 6 months, but still very wary of strangers and new dogs. Problem is, this dog hasn't done diddley doo to make me think it will ever be a hound. It is the kind that just never does anything right. It is quickly becoming a dog I don't plan to keep.

Your dog doesn't sound like an "ugly lady" she just sounds like maybe a lady who doesn't have the hair color you prefer.... There is such thing as being too picky..imo and all that ends up doing is causing you to miss out on a lot of opportunities that can prove to bring a lot of enjoyment. If in the big picture you are satisfied, thats the bottom line of it all. You can alway have ideal, but ideal and the real world don't often collide. When they do you better enjoy every moment,.

IF you bred your dog and people culled them, thats their choice. Once the litter is born you can do your best to get them to good people but thats it. To worry about them for the rest of their lives will only make you nuts and you have to trust the judgement of the people that plunked down the cash.

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I think the key would be to once again rely on the breeder to be forthright and forthcoming about the said faults, so there are no new surprises.

If a man couldn't stand a timid pup that needs some social work, he could avoid buying the pup in the first place, if a guy didn't mind then there would be no issues, and the pup would have a greater chance of making its owner happy.

I was very concerned with shyness, but now I never feel a need to carry a gun or any type of protection knowing she has the brains to decern between a friend or foe. Not to mention it's funny when she makes the game warden nervous..lol

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ron and fisher the two of you have explained this subject of shy dogs very well. i have noticed over the years that walkers do have alot of timmid or quorky breeding. and as everyone can see walkers can and do make fine coonhounds and winners. even though the other breeds have shy or timmid dogs i do feel its less common ground. enjoy!

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other than a health issue there are only 2 things I would put a dog down for because of it being a lost cause to try and fix.
1) ill, tree fighters
2) running tracks backwards
the better you are at doing your homework on how a litter is bred using traits and picking your pups the less you have to cull.
a true well bred pup will make some think they are the worlds best trainer. when in fact all they really trained it to do was lead , load , come when called and WHAT to track and tree, not how.
its not breeding the best to the best that makes a litter well bred.
it takes the right 2 dogs crossed BECAUSE OF TRAITS that makes well bred litters.
fame and titles are not traits and breeding 2 dogs because both can tree a coon is not what makes em well bred.
those types of crosses are the reasons most of the all grand or claim to fame litters only produce one or two pups that are any count and the rest of the litter is sub par. those 2 pups are the only ones that got the right combo of traits that work together. the rest just got a mixed bag of traits.
knowing what traits 2 dogs have and how they will work together when distributed unevenly in the puppies and getting it right is what makes a well bred litter.

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shy dogs are a cull to me. ya'll can have um!

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quote:

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Originally posted by toe cutter
other than a health issue there are only 2 things I would put a dog down for because of it being a lost cause to try and fix.
1) ill, tree fighters
2) running tracks backwards
the better you are at doing your homework on how a litter is bred using traits and picking your pups the less you have to cull.
a true well bred pup will make some think they are the worlds best trainer. when in fact all they really trained it to do was lead , load , come when called and WHAT to track and tree, not how.
its not breeding the best to the best that makes a litter well bred.
it takes the right 2 dogs crossed BECAUSE OF TRAITS that makes well bred litters.
fame and titles are not traits and breeding 2 dogs because both can tree a coon is not what makes em well bred.
those types of crosses are the reasons most of the all grand or claim to fame litters only produce one or two pups that are any count and the rest of the litter is sub par. those 2 pups are the only ones that got the right combo of traits that work together. the rest just got a mixed bag of traits.
knowing what traits 2 dogs have and how they will work together when distributed unevenly in the puppies and getting it right is what makes a well bred litter.

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TC thanks for your post! Still waiting on that book
Hope all is well!

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ttt

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