Registered: Jul 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 1650

no doubt most everyone on here myself included would like to see a black dog win big such as world hunt.

i just dont understand getting beligerent and fanatical about it.

if someone wins with black dog great. im happier than hell for everyone that got through zones and even further. they did dang good. sacrificing work, family time, and im sure a ton of money. when it comes to casts with real deal coon dogs anyone can win on any night. no different than football, mma, you name it. at elite level the best can loose or win any night.

if so and so with black dog would win world again why does that take imaginary monkey off back of anyone other than winner???

i like dogs i hunt or wouldnt hunt them night after night. someone else putting time and effort into winning the big show wouldnt change anything or give street cred just because same breed won big.

if it takes another mans dog winning world to make you happy about breed you hunt you have problems. trashing on guys that did make it further than most is down right pathetic and disrespectful.

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Well, imo, a lot of folks who've been true B&T men and women for a number of years and have put their blood, sweat and tears into this breed, feel like they're on a "team".

Switching breeds is not an option for this type of person. XB'ing may not even be an option. They don't have anywhere else to go. They can't just quit and change breeds, fail at that and change again and go through dog after dog pretending each new experiment is going to be the one that succeeds. They've put stakes down and got to make it work. They all look good and they all look bad, based on certain events and happenings.

Like all teams there may be some cross words from time to time and emotions can run high and low. Its nothing to read too much in to.

I think deep down the true B&T people really do want a B&T to do good, even if its not their own.

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Last edited by John D on 09-23-2014 at 02:46 PM

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I USE TO COMPETION HUNT, I ALWAYS WANTED TO WIN AND WAS THERE WITH A HOUND THAT I HAD CONFIDENCE IN AND KNEW I HAD A CHANCE OF WINNING IF MY HOUND OPERATED PROPERLY OR I WOULDNT HAVE BEEN THERE. ..I LOST MORE TIMES THAN I EVER WON. THESE BLACK AND TANS ARE A HOBBIE. WE ARE ALL ON THE SAME TEAM WANTIN OUR BREED TO WIN THAT ULTIMATE TROPHY "THE WORLD HUNT TROPHY" I AM BEHIND EVERYONE THAT SPENDS THERE HARD EARNED MONEY ON GAS,ENTERY FEES,TIME, MILES DRIVEN ,SACRIFICES THEY MAKE TO TRY AND WIN..IM PROUND OF EACH AND EVERYONE OF THOSE GUYS THAT TRY NO MATTER WHO IT IS OR WHAT LINE OF BLACK DOGS THERE HUNTING..IVE BEEN ASKED BEFORE BY DIFFERENT GUYS WHAT DO YOU THINK WE NEED TO DO TO WIN THAT WORLD HUNT TROPHY? MY ANSWER IS,THERE IS NOT JUST ONE PERSON THAT HAS THE BLACK AN TAN BLOODLINE OR HOUND THAT COULD WIN IT,THERE ARE MANY THAT COULD WIN IT ON ANY GIVEN NIGHT NO MATTER WHO THERE HUNTIN AGAINST. WERE FAMILY HERE ALL OF US IF WE DONT HUNT IN THE HUNTS THEN BACK THE ONES THAT TRY. YOU CAN AGREE OR DISAGREE ON WHAT IM ABOUT TO SAY ,,,, OUR LORD,,JESUS CHRIST AND THE WAY WE CARRY OUR SELVES AND TREAT OTHERS , AND PRESENT OUR SELVES AND OUR HOUNDS MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN IF WE WIN OR LOSE, IM A WINNER I HAVE CHRIST IN MY LIFE, A BLACK AN TAN WILL WIN THE WORLD ONE DAY WHEN THE LORD THINKS WE DESERVE IT,,,IM HAPPY FOR EVERYONE AND THERE HOUND THAT MADE IT AS FAR AS THEY DID! AGREE OR DISAGREE! HAVE A BLESSED DAY FROM THE RIVERBOTTOM,,,RON

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The black and tan has always and will always be my favorite breed. That being said there is no shame in losing to a good hound regardless of what color it is in my opinion. Thanks to those who competed and represented our breed. We may not have won it but we didn't give it to em...They had to earn it.

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All that fussin is doing.is giving them walker fellows the big head.
They think the black and tan is inferior to the walker breed.
They should be thinkin that way.because some folks in this breed think that way and give them plenty of amunition.

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quote:

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Originally posted by S.S. Kennels
The black and tan has always and will always be my favorite breed. That being said there is no shame in losing to a good hound regardless of what color it is in my opinion. Thanks to those who competed and represented our breed. We may not have won it but we didn't give it to em...They had to earn it.

---

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what im saying is if your happy with dogs and how they perform year round no matter how or where hunted what difference does someone of same breed winning a big hunt or world make???

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Mnb&t....It has always been this way,not much has change in regards to your questions.John D....why is switching breeds or cross breeding not an option for some?Imo people like there dogs,they can tree some coons,have a great time doing it,make it a social event...and so on.That is great go have fun.The constant question that I have seen is....why are the Black dogs of today not as competitive with the other breeds on a national level?My answer is...other than a few over the years,when have they been competitive?And what has been done differently to become competitive?I do not suggest that I have any of the answers,but.....if one wants better results one must change their thinking....actions....and maintain a very open mind.Breeding dogs to compete at the highest level is not a very easy task in any breed.Last comment...and I would like to hear some responses,If and this is a big if,the breed has never had "it"what would be the quickest way to get "IT".

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quote:

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Originally posted by L.Richard
Last comment...and I would like to hear some responses,If and this is a big if,the breed has never had "it"what would be the quickest way to get "IT".

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Tone it down guys, or they will delete another good topic...

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Registered: Jul 2013
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I am listening to you....go right ahead...tell all of us the secret!O great and wonderous one.

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L.Richard

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Kenneth.......please refer to the figuired it out thread below.

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L.Richard

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quote:

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Originally posted by L.Richard
John D....why is switching breeds or cross breeding not an option for some?Imo people like there dogs,they can tree some coons,have a great time doing it,make it a social event...and so on.


The constant question that I have seen is....why are the Black dogs of today not as competitive with the other breeds on a national level?My answer is...other than a few over the years,when have they been competitive?And what has been done differently to become competitive?

---

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Last edited by John D on 09-25-2014 at 10:07 PM

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Fair enough.....with out question,all breeds have common dogs.The comparison you make is valid,but several questions remain.Are we as coonhunters and breeders of black dogs demanding enough?We follow different paths in breeding,TRL,line breeding,inbreeding,breed to a big winner and so on.This is a question for you...How is it possible to pick oranges from an apple tree?We see it all the time in adds"ol so and so 9 times in these pups pedigree"The breeder and his friends jump up and down about the litter...a year later no one even knows were the pups are and how they are doing.One more litter of pups that vanish?Some of the litter...I personally question if they even made it to the woods?Can you place a litter of seven or eight pups in a very good enviorment and know with out question that they will get a very good oppurtunity?With out that...breeding will be fruitless.And no, I do not have the answer myself.

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If winning is the only thing you judge your blk dog by then many of you are probably in the wrong breed. B&Ts are not Treeing Walkers and vice/versa. Each breed has it's own distinct traits and characteristics. They are not like today's NASCAR where all the cars are the same with different decals for chev, ford, etc. Back in the day there was a distinct difference....and same for coonhound breeds.

B&Ts were known for cold-trailing and Treeing Walkers have never been known for that. Probably exceptions here and there but over all they are hot tracked dogs with speed. The average nitehunt is set up perfectly for Walkers.

Today's B&T starts at an earlier age and is quicker on track. This is because of good selective breeding. On the downside I think the nose has taken taken a step back on some lines.. but coldnosed hounds don't win hunts except in really bad conditions.

It is disappointing that no blk dogs made it into the top 20 but you just have to move on and try again. The guys and dogs that qualified did their best and that's all they can do. Congrats to them..

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quote:

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Originally posted by mnb&t
what im saying is if your happy with dogs and how they perform year round no matter how or where hunted what difference does someone of same breed winning a big hunt or world make???

---

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quote:

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Originally posted by skidiver
If winning is the only thing you judge your blk dog by then many of you are probably in the wrong breed.

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Joel....well said,I would expect that the line of thinking is also much diffirent between most and the top winning owners and handlers in any breed.You mention that wining is not a major focus for some.Keep in mind....no one enters a competition event to lose,no one.With that being said,I know that their are a number of top hounds in every breed,and some that I have hunted,are in that league.The real question for me is simple....thru genetics the Walker breed is superior,what did the early breeders of those dogs do so effectively,and successfully that the other breeds could learn from?It is the same in the dairy buisness...the Holstien cow is superior for producing milk,but not as good in other aspects.Why is it not possible for the other dairy breeds to catch up in milk production with the Holstiens?

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We probably aren't demanding enough, as a breed but I can only control my own standards. My standards are very low, I just want a dog that can tree a dang coon and throw a pup that can do the same. I've been searching the last few decades for those that can do it. When I find one I think can do it better, I have gone and will again go that direction. Pedigree is beside the point. Knowing the dogs and what genetics they could pass on is the point. Winning will take care of itself as long as a coondog can win.

I don't think its possible to get oranges from an apple tree, but I'm not a fruit farmer. I'd say if your expectation is to eat oranges, then don't blame the Apple farmer. If nobody is raising Oranges to your satisfaction then you need to either plant some Orange trees or learn how to say, "Please" and "Thank You" and enjoy a good Apple...

As far as how litters get marketed and placed, there are a lot of different ideas out there. If everybody did it the same way, we'd all fail together. I don't think you can be a good breeder without getting your pups a good chance to do what you intended for them to do. The door is open for anyone to innovate and be original and do it better. The world will be watching.

You bring up an excellent point about looking at a cross a year later to see what they are doing. That's where the rubber meets the road. This message board is an excellent tool for that. You can go back a couple years and read posts to see who was making what cross and announcing it would be a "great cross" before they were weaned. You can see pictures of those 3 mo. old pups barking at a coontail and wonder where they are, now? Or, those 15 mo. old dogs that someone just doesn't have the time to hunt and can be bought for $300 or are free because someone either doesn't know how to coonhunt or cull or both? You can see that Wonderful stud dog or female that a breeder had to purchase..........because he couldn't produce his own......

Over time, you can figure out who knows what they're talking about.

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Registered: Jul 2013
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Well spoken.....Have a look back,20 to 30 years,and I will include myself as being guilty as well.The icons of this breed,the master breeders that most look up to....what have they bred up,what potent sire have they come up with in all of those years?With that being said,and this may or may not be a good analogy,what has to take place to come up with a Trackman,Harry,Clover,Zeb,Frankie and the list is to long to type .I am asking this...if the outstanding never was,will it ever be?A lot of good dogs,no question.When will there be more outstanding ones,and how does one get there?What type of hound in the black variety was being bred and hunted 50 years ago? A lot of progress has been made,no question.While reading many posts I read a lot of wondering and concern with the people hunting and breeding black dogs.To the winners of the breed...well done,to the folks happy with there dogs...have fun,to the others looking to improve,and be more competitive... keep trying.

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Be careful what you wish for. I've probably had 20 to 25 people who own walkers ask me where they can find a good black and tan. They're tired of the hot nose ,go two miles to tree a coon ,false treeing dogs.

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quote:

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Originally posted by L.Richard
You mention that wining is not a major focus for some.Keep in mind....no one enters a competition event to lose,no one.

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quote:

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Originally posted by L.Richard
.With that being said,I know that their are a number of top hounds in every breed. The real question for me is simple....thru genetics the Walker breed is superior,what did the early breeders of those dogs do so effectively,and successfully that the other breeds could learn from?

---

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Wow, tons of valid comments and bringing the current problems to light. However, very few "attempts" at a solution other than crossbreeding. With so many variables involved, how does one mitigate the "problems" created by today's breeder?
NOT pointing the finger, "black and tans are cold nosed and not hot nosed slick treeing idiots" is a mouthful. In my opinion, the term "coondog" should enable the hound to tree hot or cold coons in a variety of conditions.
Again, in my opinion, a hound should be a good one if it is in my kennel and not good because it is in my kennel.
Giant kudos to those making it to the semi finals. Not taking anything away from them, where are the finishers today?
About a year or so, give or take, I began looking at this breed and the breeding intensely. I have looked at origin after set of origin and have come up with a couple of viable crosses "IF" they are made that should start to work for me.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Buck Smith
, I began looking at this breed and the breeding intensely. I have looked at origin after set of origin and have come up with a couple of viable crosses "IF" they are made that should start to work for me.

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Excellent question Joel......This could be the most entertaining answer we will ever see.And to the gentleman who had 20 to 25
guys wanting to know were to get a better Black and Tan,what did you tell all of them?

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