Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Winchester, Ky
Posts: 262

Is it just me or do dogs not have any heart now?? I know there's several nice dogs out there but is anyone else seeing a high ratio of dogs that can't handle being corrected or having bad habits broke?? Just no heart.

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Registered: Jul 2011
Location: tennessee
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i cant say for sure but maybe its not the heart,it could be the dogs your hunting now are not as hard headed as the use to be and you have to be more careful how you go bout correcting them.a little bit goes a long ways on some dogs.dont ever break there spirit or they want mount to nothing.

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Registered: Jan 2004
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Less heart or more brains?

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Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Winchester, Ky
Posts: 262

quote:

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Originally posted by Josh Michaelis
Less heart or more brains?

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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
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quote:

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Originally posted by TreeSmokin
Is it just me or do dogs not have any heart now?? I know there's several nice dogs out there but is anyone else seeing a high ratio of dogs that can't handle being corrected or having bad habits broke?? Just no heart.

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AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Michigan
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quote:

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Originally posted by TreeSmokin
Is it just me or do dogs not have any heart now?? I know there's several nice dogs out there but is anyone else seeing a high ratio of dogs that can't handle being corrected or having bad habits broke?? Just no heart.

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Larry Atherton

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I'm not talking about beating into submission, I'm talking about the same physical correction my Mom used on me. And my Mom darn sure never beat anyone into submission. But I see pups today that can't even take the same spankings I got as a kid. To each his own but for me, that's a done pup.

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UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.

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Registered: Jan 2004
Location: North MO
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quote:

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Originally posted by Larry Atherton
????????? Handling discipline has nothing to do with heart!

Personally, I like a dog that doesn't have to be beat into submission to follow a command. It is a sign of intelligence.

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Registered: Jul 2006
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Ive had dogs that had to be physically disciplined and ive had some that a good scolding would fix the problem. I have one now that if I get on to her either way she will want to climb on my lap and make up with me. Id rather not have to raise a hand to them.

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Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Winchester, Ky
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quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
I'm not talking about beating into submission, I'm talking about the same physical correction my Mom used on me. And my Mom darn sure never beat anyone into submission. But I see pups today that can't even take the same spankings I got as a kid. To each his own but for me, that's a done pup.

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Registered: May 2006
Location: Southern Oregon
Posts: 1344

I have one here that I've always considered having a lot of heart. You can correct her and she takes it and keeps going. I've seen her hunt herself until she has absolutely nothing left and still try and go. She has no give up or back down to her and is easier to handle then most house dogs.

I've hunted some really great game catching dogs that were lazy or pout if they are corrected and compared to them I'll say that Jane may not be the best dog out there but she makes it FUN to hunt her..

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Registered: Jun 2013
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quote:

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Originally posted by skeets
i cant say for sure but maybe its not the heart,it could be the dogs your hunting now are not as hard headed as the use to be and you have to be more careful how you go bout correcting them.a little bit goes a long ways on some dogs.dont ever break there spirit or they want mount to nothing.

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Registered: Oct 2013
Location: Maryland
Posts: 2633

"dont ever break there spirit or they want mount to nothing."

If "spirit' is running a deer/fox for three days then two things are going to happen...that "spirit" is absolutely getting broke and then maybe as you say they wont "amount to nothing," or they will get over it and go hunt the right game. Either way, if that's what spirit amounts to and I break it, where's the loss??? That dog was no good running deer so he can get just as lost with his "spirit."
All that aside, I quit coon hunting and took a break in 1994. I am recently getting back into it and from what I see, yes there is less heart in some lines of dogs. But I have to say more intelligence. It is always good to have more intelligence in a dog. I believe if handled correctly it makes training a lot easier for the dog as well as the trainer.
Lack of heart causes a few issues. Sometimes they just never recover. A cull is a cull and it is cut in stone that if you don't demand perfection from your dog you will not get it. Lack of heart also causes a trainer to have to wait and see.
Here is a good example of the difference...I have a worthless little house dog Jack Russell that would mark a certain spot in the house. He has tons of heart. He decided he would continue to mark his spot no matter what. I decided he would eventually get tired of being corrected for it, especially if the "corrective action" got more severe each time. I won. It took about three months. It got to the point of cull or cure. He chose cure, lucky for him...but through all this if I said "you wanna go out???" {in Jack Russell language that translates to "lets go kill a woodchuck or other small animal!!"} he was always ready to go and just as excited about it even if I nearly caved his head in a few minutes ago for marking. To me that is heart.
I have a one year old walker pup that is very intelligent but he likes to bump deer. He has never got away with a full blown, all out, run to catch, have all the fun in the world chase. Not ever. I have stopped him every time, probably about 10 times total over several months. I have always seen the deer because I run him during the day. He is just getting to the point that he believes deer are not good. The result is that he now doesn't give it his all on a coon because to him running a track hasn't always worked in his favor. He wants to but he's a little afraid. I now have to wait and give him some time to realize that deer are not for him but coons are O.k. That is long on intelligence but a little short on heart.

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Registered: Sep 2013
Location: alabama
Posts: 30

Im not but 33 years old and dont have the experience and wisdom as some of the old timers to be answering much. But I have a bnt female and a jack Russell female that has taught me more in the last 6 years than I learned in the first 10 years of handling dogs. Now I cant answer the question if dogs now have less heart than dogs use too because I can only compare to dogs in my time I never hunted with the old timers. But from the stories I wander where the gameness and instinct went to? Now what I can comment on is what I have learned in my hunting experience. 1. You can teach and old dog new tricks but you cant teach any dog to hunt. It has to be an instinct. 2. When raising dogs they need to know you are the alpha leader pack leader what ever you call it. If they dont they will not listen to you and they may not realize they are getting corrected for something and not train as easy. 3. Patience and time you have to have them to raise kids and you have to have them to raise dogs. If you dont have them dont get a pup get a broke coondog.

To me the dogs that cant take very much discipline dont have the instincts to hunt they just seem to be playing around having fun and you take thier fun away and they just pout. I dont know where it comes from or if its a alfa leader problem. Hounds should go hunting because its their instinct and they are driven by a passion to hunt and no discipline should stop them.
Now I would love to find a hound with the traits of my hound and Jack Russell all put in one you would have something. But it would take a lot of patience. Ill take a dog like my bnt any day. When she was young if she ran a deer you could wear her out send her back in and she would run another one and this could go on several times a night before we get on a coon she was so concentrated on getting struck and running a track it was anything with a scent but with patience and time its all good.

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Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Winchester, Ky
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quote:

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Originally posted by msinc
"dont ever break there spirit or they want mount to nothing."

If "spirit' is running a deer/fox for three days then two things are going to happen...that "spirit" is absolutely getting broke and then maybe as you say they wont "amount to nothing," or they will get over it and go hunt the right game. Either way, if that's what spirit amounts to and I break it, where's the loss??? That dog was no good running deer so he can get just as lost with his "spirit."
All that aside, I quit coon hunting and took a break in 1994. I am recently getting back into it and from what I see, yes there is less heart in some lines of dogs. But I have to say more intelligence. It is always good to have more intelligence in a dog. I believe if handled correctly it makes training a lot easier for the dog as well as the trainer.
Lack of heart causes a few issues. Sometimes they just never recover. A cull is a cull and it is cut in stone that if you don't demand perfection from your dog you will not get it. Lack of heart also causes a trainer to have to wait and see.
Here is a good example of the difference...I have a worthless little house dog Jack Russell that would mark a certain spot in the house. He has tons of heart. He decided he would continue to mark his spot no matter what. I decided he would eventually get tired of being corrected for it, especially if the "corrective action" got more severe each time. I won. It took about three months. It got to the point of cull or cure. He chose cure, lucky for him...but through all this if I said "you wanna go out???" {in Jack Russell language that translates to "lets go kill a woodchuck or other small animal!!"} he was always ready to go and just as excited about it even if I nearly caved his head in a few minutes ago for marking. To me that is heart.
I have a one year old walker pup that is very intelligent but he likes to bump deer. He has never got away with a full blown, all out, run to catch, have all the fun in the world chase. Not ever. I have stopped him every time, probably about 10 times total over several months. I have always seen the deer because I run him during the day. He is just getting to the point that he believes deer are not good. The result is that he now doesn't give it his all on a coon because to him running a track hasn't always worked in his favor. He wants to but he's a little afraid. I now have to wait and give him some time to realize that deer are not for him but coons are O.k. That is long on intelligence but a little short on heart.

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Registered: Mar 2008
Location: Western N.Y.
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We often talk about drive or the lack of drive in some of todays dogs, i dont think there is a difference between heart and drive but i do know that without it you dont have much. We also talk alot about brains and many seem to feel that intelligence is the first reguirement they look for but it occured to me thinking back over the last 40 years that the better hounds that i have owned were not the smartest, in fact they probably were the duumbest, they deffinatly were the most hardheaded and single minded, they seemed to live only to tree coon, the kind that can fall over an edge, break a leg and get up and finish the track, not very smart but alot of heart and drive.
Smart dogs are like smart wowen, they can be a real pain to live with. Lol.

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Intelligence in a dog is a double edge sword...heart or drive is not and that is why we always consider it a good thing. Either they have enough heart or they don't. But smarts can go either way. Here is a good example...one handler has a very smart dog that has figured out if he circles out ahead of a track as fast as he can he will pick it up ahead of the other dogs and eventually get to the tree first. Another dog figures out that if he follows a deer track without opening he can get far enough away so that the box of fire around his neck doesn't hurt him. Both dogs are way smarter than average but one is a big time winner and bred weekly...the other is a cull. Couldn't either dogs pups go either way???

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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 103

quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
I think we have a much higher ratio of soft hearted coonhunters today and that contributes to many of these problems. My Dad would shoot a shy dog , a timid dog or any dog that couldn't take physical correction so fast it would make your head swim. Today, many want to know how to fix or deal with those traits when, in fact, they should be serious about culling dogs with those traits.

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Registered: Dec 2013
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i have one that you can beat on till day light and he will go do the same thing you beat him for!!! it is very nerve racking at times. ecollor doesnt faze him at all either. i had his litter mate here and if you hollored at her she would sull up and quit. i would rather have one that takes that beatin and goes hunting

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Location: New Paris, Indiana
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quote:

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Originally posted by roadrunner22
I may take some heat for this but i think you nailed it. People put up with to much bs from dogs now days. Just look at some of these thread titles on here. "Hunting a 3 legged dog in hunts" LOL (may not need culled but lol all the same), "Dog hides from me when treed", "My dog is a barking idiot". Why not just get a decent dog instead of trying to fix something thats wrong with a dog mentally? At least PLEASE don't breed these types all you are gonna do is make more crazy dogs. Sorry for hi jacking the thread and sorry if I hurt anybody's feelings but I had to say it

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AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
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quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
I think we have a much higher ratio of soft hearted coonhunters today and that contributes to many of these problems. My Dad would shoot a shy dog , a timid dog or any dog that couldn't take physical correction so fast it would make your head swim. Today, many want to know how to fix or deal with those traits when, in fact, they should be serious about culling dogs with those traits.

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Heart and drive, are a completely separate trait then intelligence, and intelligence is a very unique thing in dogs.
Most people look at obedience or working intelligence as a sign of intellect, in dogs. However there are different types of intelligence in dogs. Take for example the bloodhound, as a general rule they respond poorly to verbal commands and are slow to learn. However when it comes to tracking and learning to run tracks they learn very quickly. So... Does that make them dumb that they don't learn to sit very quickly?

Hounds traditionally have been very one dimensional , hence the stigma that they don't make very good pets. I believe though that the walker breed does have a good amount of working intelligence, and most dog trainers prefer a dog with that. As far as a smart dog lacking drive, not sure where someone got that idea. Just look at border colliies, very high drive but also very intelligent. I also think guys get confused between confidence and drive. I have seen dogs that are high drive but may lack the confidence, to hunt very deep. I have found that over time these dogs will learn to range better. I have also had dogs that are low drive and just have been breed too much for other traits like mouth or tree power and have lost the drive that is required in a working dog.

As far as corrections go, every dog has different tolerances of corrections. Using too much correction can always result in unwanted side effects, using not enough will result in the unwanted continued behavior. This is why the best way is to start with a small correction and escalate in severity of the correction, until the desired result is acquired. A lot of dog owners tend to reside on one side of the fence or the other, not enough correction, typically women, or to much typically men. Reading between the lines of the original posters question, I think it would be wise to read up on proper forms of correction techniques, and work on your patience. Dogs learn best from consistency and repetition. I also gather that you prefer the more single minded type hound you may want to switch breeds or try some different lines, this combined with a better knowledge and practicing of proper correction techniques, should lead you to what you are looking for. Myself personally I prefer a dog with a high level of working intelligence, this I feel makes it easier to communicate my wants and desires.

Last edited by Fisher13 on 08-04-2014 at 08:15 PM

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Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Oak Vale, Mississippi
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quote:

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Originally posted by ole hoss
i have one that you can beat on till day light and he will go do the same thing you beat him for!!! it is very nerve racking at times. ecollor doesnt faze him at all either. i had his litter mate here and if you hollored at her she would sull up and quit. i would rather have one that takes that beatin and goes hunting

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Registered: Jul 2006
Location: Griswold Ct.
Posts: 285

"3 legged dog in a,hunt "are saying that is foolish? I'm unsure of the intend of your quote but if you think a 3 legged dog can't compete your terribly mistaken and I can prove it
Pkc gold ch and a ukc grand night ch while 3 legged

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quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
Wow! Not much to ad to that. Good post.

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