Registered: Sep 2009
Location: Monticello, Wi
Posts: 744

I agree with your analysis, gamey desire without intelligence and the dogs desire to please the handler will require training using negative discipline and fear. I wasted a lot of my life training gamey dogs with natural ability that were too dumb to make outstanding hounds.
Desire, intelligence and the desire to please their owner are genetic and inherited. Life is too short to keep breeding and training hounds that have the personality of a house cat. That my opinion and I'm sticking to it. Ken Risley

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Registered: Sep 2009
Location: Monticello, Wi
Posts: 744

I agree with your analysis, gamey desire without intelligence and the dogs desire to please the handler will require training using negative discipline and fear. I wasted a lot of my life training gamey dogs with natural ability that were too dumb to make outstanding hounds.
Desire, intelligence and the desire to please their owner are genetic and inherited. Life is too short to keep breeding and training hounds that have the personality of a house cat. That my opinion and I'm sticking to it. Ken Risley

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Registered: Sep 2005
Location: Southwest Ohio
Posts: 1774

I’ve got a question!

Is it possible that a dog can have extra giddy up and not be trashy?

Say it ain’t so

Carry on ......

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Registered: Feb 2010
Location: Willard, Kentucky
Posts: 1198

Where I hunt off game heavily out numbers desired game, so most pups and young dogs with any drive/desire are going to get after something when cut loose. Yes it can be aggravating but with a little hunting, training, and exposure to desired game, the smart ones usually catch on pretty quick. Like someone mentioned before you can take things out of a dog, but it's pretty hard to put things in.

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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1911

quote:

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Originally posted by Dave Richards
That was good advice then and still is today. You can not put something in a dog, but you sure can take things out of a dog. I have yet to see any trainer teach a dog to track, hunt or tree, they may think they did. You can stop about anything a dog does, but you can not put what's not there in any dog. If one could do these things, he could be rich in no time at all. Dave

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Registered: Dec 2013
Location: Nichols Ny
Posts: 1565

quote:

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Originally posted by yadkintar
It's a matter of personal preference I guess. I don't put them on deer but when they are young most dogs that try to push a track when deer are in rut will run one I can and will stop them anytime I want. Now I like a running dog that will tree I like a dog that is such a superior track dog that there is no way dogs can mee too on them and that are so dominant that over the course of the hunt pieces start falling off the other dogs because they know they are being dominated. Down here without an exceptional track dog you go to a lot of empty trees I am to old and cranky to do that.



Tar

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Registered: Jan 2006
Location: WV
Posts: 821

From the sound of many responses on here it sounds like a trashy dog is a good thing. I can assure everyone that the coon hound of today is MUCH more trash free than 30-40 years ago. Someone has done their homework in breeding this type of hound, and I for one appreciate it. What this tells me is coon hounds can be directed, through quality breeding, to do away with unwanted traits and enhance the good traits, ie... hunting, trailing & treeing in a fast paced fashion. I broke dogs back when there was no advanced methods like we have today. It sure leaves a bad taste in your mouth when you waste night after night chasing your hound through the woods and in most cases, not catching them and hoping they will show up on your jacket the next morning or show up on some honest persons porch who would look at the name tag and call you. The name tag on the collar was the single most important thing with owning a coon hound. I would do this many nights in a row just hoping my hound might tree a coon. How many would do this in todays coon hunting world and still stick with it without our new breaking methods? I do have all the new gadgets now and appreciate every one of them but I am very reluctant in using the E on young hounds because they can set one back and the name of the game is to keep going forward, IMO. I totally understand and respect everyone's response on this thread but I do believe there are quality hounds out there that we can move forward with that are more trash free. This honest opinion and $5 might just get you a cup of coffee. Sorry so lengthy, I slept well last night, LOL. Have a great day.

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

Ron you don't hunt walker dogs so you don't know the rest of the story lol. But those ole trashy walkers are winning everything ........... Hmmmmmmmmm.




Tar

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Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 5639

I bought an Enlish dog in 1970 or 71, that was a very good coondog, but he would run the hair off a deer. We didn't have many deer in those days and just in certain places were you likely to get after a deer. I loved that dog with the exception of him running deer. Keep him out of deer and he was exceptional at treeing coons , I sold him due to this fault as the shocking collars back then were worthless in these mountains and I could not break him. I have never owned another dog that was as bad on deer and for years now, the deer are thick around here. Dogs today are definitely not as trashy as yesterday's dogs. Dave

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Columbus, Ks
Posts: 5398

Rather they run their mouth or trash until coming across a hot coon, those type hounds win a bunch. I do prefer hounds that are naturally straight or easy to break. Hounds that only open when smelling coon. Competition hunters like the style of hound that win. Coon hunters enjoy hounds that are a pleasure to hunt.

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Registered: Jan 2018
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 47

I believe genetics has alot to do with "trashyness". I believe the bloodline of dogs I hunt are naturally not trashy. I'm not saying they won't run trash, but if or when they do as a pup or young dog they are easy to break. They are as full of drive as most other dogs I've seen. I also believe the fastest dog don't always tree first, the smartest one will more than not. If you have smart and fast, then you have something special. It burns me up for a dog to run trash and break off and tree coon.

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

I break all of mine buuuuuut I like an athlete one than runs faster than the rest of the pack locates faster and has the meat more than the rest !! Because I am a big dummy and the dog has to make up for my mistakes.



Tar

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Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 5639

X2 on a dog that runs a deer, breaks off and tree a coon, I hate that sucker no matter how much it can win in competition. I won't feed that kind of a dog period, that English dog I described in an earlier post would do just that, leave on a deer and switch over. Coon hunting should be a pleasure, how can one accept that behavior, I just don't understand. One works for money and coonhunts for fun, a man would starve to death coon Hunting for money, I don't care how good the dog is. Dave

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Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 5823

Most young pups that love to run fast game have the extra gear that a select few are looking for, that some others think they want but maybe cannot handle lol. Nearly every pup with any brains that starts out trashy as all get out once it starts treeing coons nearly breaks itself and requires very little sometimes almost no encouragement to stop on it's own and make very nice Coondogs that are exceptional track dogs. The ones without brains never make the cut and are a non factor in this discussion. As was stated you can take out what is needed but you can't add what wasn't there to begin with. Game desire, track speed along with the ability to run a track, accuracy not just tree power are qualities you will find more often in dogs that were once trashy pups. There is a difference in a trashy pup and a trashy older dog that never figured out what it's purpose was.
You can ask this very same question to a group of 64 in a week and a half and get a completely different answer than 80% of you have gave. The difference they will be hunting for a new truck while some will be still arguing about what will help a blue dog to win the world hunt.

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Registered: Jun 2018
Location:
Posts: 10

Some like one thing some like another. I don't think there's anyway a dog can tree a coon that I enjoy better than it be screaming through the country with it's head in the wind and fall off on a coon. I enjoy that more than listening to a dog standing on his head bellowing. I have heard of these hard hunting, track driving, accurate, natural straight coon treeing machines, but in 30 years of hunting with nearly every breed. I have never seen one personally. I am sure that there's many out there , not saying there's not by any means. I just have not had the privilege of seeing it myself.

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Registered: Feb 2013
Location: Yell county
Posts: 66

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dave Richards
X2 on a dog that runs a deer, breaks off and tree a coon, I hate that sucker no matter how much it can win in competition. I won't feed that kind of a dog period, that English dog I described in an earlier post would do just that, leave on a deer and switch over. Coon hunting should be a pleasure, how can one accept that behavior, I just don't understand. One works for money and coonhunts for fun, a man would starve to death coon Hunting for money, I don't care how good the dog is. Dave [/QUOTE This!!!

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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1911

I have seen some fast dogs get hung up in lots of hog scent and the early starting dog just come in and figure it out almost as fast as he showed up...this dog was working a cold track before going to the walker dog...

It took me a little while to figure out early starting trash running pups...the worst thing was running deer...these pups were really good locators and stuck with the track so running deer was definitely a problem...

There are 4 things I did and do...

1.I make sure they love the woods and know i want them there...that way at a later date if I need the E collar they know for sure it is not because they are in the woods...I dont ever want them to not understand that... it would be a major setback...

2. They know what game I want...that way if I use the E collar they know it’s because they are running off game...

3.I break them off of deer at home

4. I cast them where I know the desired game leave scent... or I cast them in to a few races to chase and bay or catch the right game...
The 4 steps make it fairly easy to break the pups without major headaches...before I figured this out it ways a chore...I like them fast, quick locators that love to hunt and catch game...

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Registered: Jan 2019
Location:
Posts: 27

Just my own opinion it doesnt matter if it is natural straight pup or a trashy pup if you to hunt them it really doesnt matter in the end.

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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1911

Naturally straight coon hunting pups...
What are the reasons or theories?

I will share mine...

I agree with what has been said that it is genetics...but I believe that is only part of it...I also believe in the evolution process that is happening over time...

Breeders breeding and selecting according to traits that they see is a part of the evolution process because selective breeding is in actuality selecting for certain genes...so our hunting dogs are evolving per selective breeding...

There is another thought process...epigenetics...examples below...

The sire being a coon dog that is hunted regularly especially right before breeding..
The female hunted regularly before breeding...especially during pregnancy...

There is lots of research going on about this thought process...it is not new but new to some of us and not known by many...the researchers are scratching the surface on this subject...

I believed in it before I knew this was a science...

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Registered: Dec 2013
Location: Nichols Ny
Posts: 1565

quote:

---

Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
Most young pups that love to run fast game have the extra gear that a select few are looking for, that some others think they want but maybe cannot handle lol. Nearly every pup with any brains that starts out trashy as all get out once it starts treeing coons nearly breaks itself and requires very little sometimes almost no encouragement to stop on it's own and make very nice Coondogs that are exceptional track dogs. The ones without brains never make the cut and are a non factor in this discussion. As was stated you can take out what is needed but you can't add what wasn't there to begin with. Game desire, track speed along with the ability to run a track, accuracy not just tree power are qualities you will find more often in dogs that were once trashy pups. There is a difference in a trashy pup and a trashy older dog that never figured out what it's purpose was.
You can ask this very same question to a group of 64 in a week and a half and get a completely different answer than 80% of you have gave. The difference they will be hunting for a new truck while some will be still arguing about what will help a blue dog to win the world hunt.

---

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Registered: Feb 2007
Location:
Posts: 614

Give me the one that's ready to catch the first thing with hair on it they smell. All I want to know is were they out in front of the rest. I drew Buffalo River Thunder in 1978 ACHA World. He was a good one.

Last edited by David Morgan on 01-24-2019 at 03:15 PM

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Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 2072

I have seen 4 deer killed in the more recent years I have been coon hunting 1 of them was in a hunt. I couldn't hardly stop laughing of coarse it wasn't my dog that came carrying that thing back to the cast. It was a big ol walker dog that had it picked up in the middle with the legs dragging and getting tangled in the brush as it worked that full sized doe are way. He only trailed it maybe 200 yards till he caught it. The other 3 was by a young walker that has become a nice fairly straight coonhound since and he still hunts at a steady 8 mph or better. 1 of the deer he brought down was a very nice buck an 8 point if I remember correctly.

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

quote:

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Originally posted by David Morgan
Give me that's ready to catch the first thing with hair on it they smell. All I want to know is were they out in front of the rest. I drew Buffalo River Thunder in 1978 ACHA World. He was a good one.

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Registered: Jun 2006
Location: Newton, North Carolina
Posts: 12254

quote:

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Originally posted by pamjohnson
I have seen 4 deer killed in the more recent years I have been coon hunting 1 of them was in a hunt. I couldn't hardly stop laughing of coarse it wasn't my dog that came carrying that thing back to the cast. It was a big ol walker dog that had it picked up in the middle with the legs dragging and getting tangled in the brush as it worked that full sized doe are way. He only trailed it maybe 200 yards till he caught it. The other 3 was by a young walker that has become a nice fairly straight coonhound since and he still hunts at a steady 8 mph or better. 1 of the deer he brought down was a very nice buck an 8 point if I remember correctly.

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Registered: Dec 2013
Location: Nichols Ny
Posts: 1565

Yep, those are the track driving dogs I like.

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