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I figured if I was going to stir something up today. It might as well be with a good man. If we took someone that had never seen a walker pedigree and asked him to go get two walkers and breed them. I would say he probably would be line-breeding some line of walkers. Now if he learned the characteristics of one line over the other and chose that side of the pedigree to choose a sire and dam from then he woild be line breeding even more but with justification. That justification would be the dogs he is line breeding suit him. The sad thing about this is the side he didnt favor could be bred to their likeness and considered line bred also. Line breeding in itself doesnt in the walker breed mean much any more. They are all about line bred and any future cross will be line breeding. As you well know there line breeding cofficients that can be determined by entering your pedigree in the program. That is where we need to move to and start to identify line breeding cofficients for certain lines of hounds and more importantly tag those lines with success or filure. You dig deeper into the numbers you might see a certain dog is benificisk once or twice in a certain position on a pedigree but the same dog is harmful at a certain cofficient level in another pedigree.
The beauty of this is that thrre are answers that can be discovered using records. Then there are the handful if men that had this figured out in their heads.

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Oh boy finally some entertainment !!! I am going to stop and get snacks on the way home from work for this one lol.



Ps : I promise I will just watch on this one Bruce.

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Tar you have to have some 7 generation pedigrees laying around there. Look at them and tell me where you could find a walker today not line bred. Tar Rattler, Nailor, Sackett JR, Lipper, Yadkin river this or yadkin river that. HillBilly Mack, stylish harry, Hayes and a host of others. At least one and maybe two of them there 5 to 10 times.

In the old days they bred best to the best for success. Now we say line breed them. It is hard not to but you have to determine which line bred lines worked and breed the best of them to the best. Same recipe. Just a different selection process.

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Bruce my Ole Buddy
Here is where most do not understand breeding? And some do not care? lol
Just because ole Goober is in the pedigree multiple times does not really matter, Do they act like him?Hunt like him? Sound like him?
As we have stated before, the dog is reduced by 50% by each passing generation, also what we are looking for by Linebreeding is family selection, do they have the same traits and do they pass on the same traits?
Take a Litter and only pick the ones showing the family traits, then breed them to a closely related member showing the traits, before long you will see the traits younger and younger and be able to pick them out faster.
I disagree totally that most Walker hounds are line bred, they just have the same ancesters

Science won't help you too much with breeding, never has.
Knowing the Good and Bad of each animal does. And being truthful!
Health is never an issue, if you breed healthy stock that do not have any major problems.
Example: He has Harry 5 times in his pedigree, so does he act like Harry? Does he hunt like Harry? If he is nothing like Harry who cares?
My fingers are cramping lol

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Where Conrad is going I already been there. Your right it's hard to say a dog is pure this or that part of that is when a dog gets hot and you put the big numbers of pups on the ground a lot of females out of that dog get bred that are never hunted we don't live in a world where everybody is selective about how they breed and the ones that are selective you see their dogs in the winners circle not in the classifieds for sale.


Ps : I just realized you made me comment you outta be ashamed Bruce lol.

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This thread has not lived up to all the hype lol.

Conrad what you are saying is just because you got Rufus in a dogs pedigree 5 times and then you go get some Rufus seman and then use it on a female that has some Rufus in her but you are not wanting Rufus traits and when they are born and you start training them you really got dufus traits now how in the heck did that happen ?

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Thats why I ask the question the other day Bruce, how close do the need to be to consider them line bred?

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IT does not happen overnight either, it is a selection process that most are not willing to invest in, you have to reduce the ocean of traits to the traits you want.
Most say that takes too long? Then we must live and swim in the ocean.

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I'm just a dumb mountain boy, I prefer small ponds.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by CONRAD FRYAR
I'm just a dumb mountain boy, I prefer small ponds.

---

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quote:

---

Originally posted by CONRAD FRYAR
Bruce my Ole Buddy
Here is where most do not understand breeding? And some do not care? lol
Just because ole Goober is in the pedigree multiple times does not really matter, Do they act like him?Hunt like him? Sound like him?
As we have stated before, the dog is reduced by 50% by each passing generation, also what we are looking for by Linebreeding is family selection, do they have the same traits and do they pass on the same traits?
Take a Litter and only pick the ones showing the family traits, then breed them to a closely related member showing the traits, before long you will see the traits younger and younger and be able to pick them out faster.
I disagree totally that most Walker hounds are line bred, they just have the same ancesters

Science won't help you too much with breeding, never has.
Knowing the Good and Bad of each animal does. And being truthful!
Health is never an issue, if you breed healthy stock that do not have any major problems.
Example: He has Harry 5 times in his pedigree, so does he act like Harry? Does he hunt like Harry? If he is nothing like Harry who cares?
My fingers are cramping lol

---

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I am in no way against going outside the family, once the family has been established........
Then If the breeding complements each other great, but if it does not you still have a solid family to go back to.
Two tight line bred family"s crossed on each other can reproduce something special, as we have seen in times past.
The right outcross can invigorate the bloodlines, but they need to have similar traits or there progeny will be back to that big ole ocean.

That is why most will say, I just want a pup, breed two hounds

Remember years ago when you looked at the magazine and there were just a few good breeders, it is a time consuming job, to do them right.
I in no way have all the answers, just have been a student of the breeding process since i was a small kid(maybe a sickness
Whether it was Game roosters, cows, goats etc.......
As a kid around 10 yrs old i would ride my bike for miles to find old men that had animals and set for hours on end listening to how they got there stock where they were.

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Most people generally have two sets of traits for their hound. The one they want to see and the one they tell their buddies about. Then there is another set also. The ones your buddies see.

In your example about having Harry in the pedigree 5 times. If Harry is in the pedigree 5 times and they are nothing like Harry. Then what good did it do to put Harry in the pedigree 5 times. What they will be are ticking time bombs. The ones the savoy breeder keeps may attain the goals he had for the litter and have a stronger possibility of passing those traits along. The down side is the ones that should have been buried will get sold and moved along also and they have a stronger possibility of stamping the poor qualities into someones breeding program. Just because Harry was there 5 times.

Traits and memories of traits especially bad ones seem to fade like a bees sting. The more times passes the less likely you are to remember the traits and the bees sting. A mans mind can make them do many a foolish thing.

But there is a cure for that. If you forgot all the bad traits one of your dogs had. Just ask your buddy he remembers them. lol To bad your buddies can't be there when your dreaming and planning a breeding based on the good traits bouncing around in your head.

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Just for an exzample I am guilty as charged of only breeding a certain way to the point that I started getting lack luster results. That being said if I had a top prospect right now because of my strong belief in training one properly before going to a hunt I am 59 yrs old need a tune up so if I get lucky and get somthing that will compete on a higher level I will be in my 60's I am running out of time. We all know bone was an accident he was not planned but he is a dominant reproducer I drained the pond I jumped ship I ain't got enough time left for my pride to get in the way coon eyes matter coon dog to coon dog a wise man told me that. But I am going to a son of bone this time I think he has got.............. It.

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The coonhound world spent a decade or more breeding Grntch....to Grntch and look what it got us. lol

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I was within miles of where that all grand stuff started and that's where the non stop barking and dookie smearing started and it is a dominant trait don't think they was breeding for it tho they just wanted to sell pups don't think they cared what they did. Had two out of Harry that paced in the pen so much they wore a two ft deep ditch in the front all the way accross would grunt till they got the batteries wore down on the bark collar so they could bark wouldn't have nothing to do with a coon I drained the pond lol. Be carful when your mixing your recipe it takes 2 to 3 yrs to know if you got the mix right.

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Tar, I can tell you this. My bone pup is smart and wants to do.

This is going to sound funny and I have seen people say this on here before and I believe it also. Once you get the magic sauce you just have to handle it correctly and not spoil it. Give them the chance and don't mess them up. Stay out of their way as their breeding will do what 10 trainers can't.

Here is an example. People want to know how to teach one to load. Lot of ways used but with my bone pup all I have to do is stay out of his way and let him get a little bigger.

Yesterday I was out in the pasture with the pups and put one of the grown dogs in the back of the Ranger. The Bone pup seen the grown one jump up there and he about killed himself trying to jump up there. He just needs to get a little bigger. I am looking forward to this fall with him. He might make a young man out of me again. Tar, I hope yours does the same for you.

Conrad, I think your GR NITE post should be on a bumper sticker and on every coon hunters truck in america. Titles don't guarantee traits and it is the traits that count.

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Trip down memory lane Bruce granny's daddy Deacon was the best dog I have ever unsnapped whe he was about 6 months old I was really busy so my little step daughters would get him out dress him up and stuff I was teaching one of them to hit softball he would set right beside me when she would hit it he would go get it and set it beside me did not teach him that you go hunting you could take a dog out of the pen next to him he would never bark I could open the dog box go let him out he would load up himself. I took him on his first hunt he had never seen a coon we cut loose he was gone like a rocket and ran and treed with the dogs. When you talked to him he made eye contact with you granny does that I see it in the bone dogs don't know what common ancestor it came from but I would borrow money to get a bunch of it.

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Tar, You are on the right track, just be glad there is one of "those studs" available right now(i know he has deceased)
And any time we are lucky enough to see one, he should probably be added to the mix.

The trick will be to see if anyone can keep that line going past first generation Bone pups? I hope so, we need all the tools we can get.

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when breeding everyone wants to breed better dogs. keep improving. so I was curious what some of you fellows think is more important, breeding to the better dog with the right traits and some prominent faults or breeding to a lesser dog with the right traits without the faults?
maybe someone even has some knowledge of some past experience to share about this?

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Conrad you did a great job explaining proper linebreeding as far as I'm concerned. Linebreed the blood then linebreed the ones that have the traits you like to set the traits.
Some people need to be doing something besides discussing linebreeding especially if by their calculations Sacket Jr. is 1/2 Yadkin River.

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quote:

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Originally posted by yadkinriver
Conrad you did a great job explaining proper linebreeding as far as I'm concerned. Linebreed the blood then linebreed the ones that have the traits you like to set the traits.
Some people need to be doing something besides discussing linebreeding especially if by their calculations Sacket Jr. is 1/2 Yadkin River.

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Tar, agree he was a great reproducer but I'm in favor of Yadkin River Tom. In Jim Meeks own words,"the fastest track dog I've ever seen". He reproduced dogs that ran heads up and didn't tree until they got to the end.

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quote:

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Originally posted by CONRAD FRYAR
Bruce my Ole Buddy

Science won't help you too much with breeding, never has.

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Conrad,

You say science never helped anyone with breeding, but everything you say that should be done science has proven correct.

I will agree that dog breeding does better with a little bit of Art mixed in.

Face it Conrad, you are a closet scientist and artist.

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quote:

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Originally posted by yadkinriver
Tar, agree he was a great reproducer but I'm in favor of Yadkin River Tom. In Jim Meeks own words,"the fastest track dog I've ever seen". He reproduced dogs that ran heads up and didn't tree until they got to the end.

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